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"The box... you opened it. We came. It's a means to summon us - Cenobites. Explorers in the further regions of experience. Demons to some. Angels to others. You solved the box. We came. Now you must come with us. Taste our pleasures. We belong to you Kirsty. And you to us. No tears please. It's a waste of good suffering."

- Pinhead aka Lead Cenobite, Hellraiser

As many of you know I am working on what will hopefully eventually be a novel-length piece of fanfiction that will be a crossover between Millennium and Hellraiser.

I'm appealing to you for assistance of a sort, looking for knowledge I lack. I would especially like to hear what Seraphim and Father Karras would have to say, but would like input from all interested.

I have been reading the discussion on Samael / Sammael from the episode "Powers, Principalities, Thrones and Dominions". For ease of reference here are the threads elsewhere in the board that seem relevent ...

Angels and Demons, Who is Sammael?

https://millennium-thisiswhoweare.net/tiwwa/i...&hl=Samael&st=0

Question, Samael in Powers, Principalities, Thrones

https://millennium-thisiswhoweare.net/tiwwa/i...=1084&hl=Samuel

Identity of Samael

https://millennium-thisiswhoweare.net/tiwwa/i...=3798&hl=Samael

While the Cenobites share little in appearance with Samael from PPTD, Pinhead's description of who the Cenobites are contains the sentences, "Demons to some. Angels to others."

When I read the wonderful explanations on the topic of Samael I drew a link with Seraphim's statement, "Sammael (Poison of God is one translation) is sometimes said (Rabbinic lore) to be an angel of punishment or death. He is often equated as being the Satan or a prince of hell." and Father Karras' statement, "So, in answer to your question, there is evidence to support the idea of Samael being both angel and or demon."

The question arises in my mind as to whether it could be construed that they are of the same order of angels, albeit twisted ones. Opinions?

Or are the Cenobites merely demons?

In the thread, "Question, Samael in Powers, Principalities, Thrones," The_0ld_Man asks, "Is there a war in hell much as the one in heaven that culminated in the casting out?" to which wehavethefacts replied, "The way I see it, yes there is a war in hell."

The way I see it, Legion in the guise of Pepper (2nd Season), offering the same sort of arrangement as the Judge (1st Season) to Frank steps over the line of acceptability, perhaps by attempting to draw mortals into the cosmic struggle or perhaps by revealing something of his true nature to Frank. Samael comes as the enforcer to punish pepper by sending him back to hell.

The Cenobites as I understand it serve their Lord Leviathan by imposing order over chaos. Their methods may be evil but their goal is order.

The other thing I am seeking is Leviathan, Lord of the Labrynth. I checked Boyd's Bible Dictionary and found that there are references to Leviathan in Job xli. and Psalms lxxiv. 14 but Leviathan is a crocodile or aquatic monster. Are there any references to support Leviathan as a demon/devil or lord of hell?

Again I thank you for any assistance or opinions you have to offer.

Thanks,

Maxx Blackwell

Visit Maxx's Blog - The New Millennium: The Time is Now - for the newest ideas to come from the mind of Maxx Blackwell.

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"THE ANTICHRIST DOES NOT COME AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED. WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED, THE REIGN OF THE JUST BEGINS; THEN COMES THE ANTICHRIST, TO CONFOUND THE JUST, AND THEN COMES THE FINAL BATTLE..."

- Alinardo of Grottaferrata, December 1323 (The Name of the Rose, Umberto Eco)

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I have nothing to really add here except I have seen the preview for Hellraiser: Hellworld which has Lance Henrikson in the cast and it looks like another bad Hellraiser sequel.

I do wonder if a Hellraiser/Millennium crossover fanfic would work.

"Don't tug on that, you never know what it might be attached to. "- Buckaroo Banzai

 

"There are no answers- only choices."

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I have nothing to really add here except I have seen the preview for Hellraiser: Hellworld which has Lance Henrikson in the cast and it looks like another bad Hellraiser sequel. 

I do wonder if a Hellraiser/Millennium crossover fanfic would work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it could. I have a good feeling about it. The first trick will be to stick to the Millennium TV show format when writing (basing it on first season template).

On the Hellbound Web there's a guy complaining about how the most recent stories are "other" stories with Pinhead added in, like Hellraiser: Inferno and Hellraiser: Hellseeker. Personally I didn't have a problem with those - I thought they were quite good.

What they've been doing with Hellraiser has already been done with ALIEN.

- ALIEN - Man hunted by monster in scifi setting

- ALIENS - A military movie starring the Xenomorph

- ALIEN III - A prison movie starring the Xenomorph

- ALIEN RESURRECTION - Another ALIEN movie

My story will be a Millennium story with Pinhead added in playing a role similar to The Polaroid Man - someone acting behind the scenes. With all the contemplation I've done between work periods I can see a few possibilities for a mini-series of stories as well, one of which would involve Dr. Fabricant.

The second rule will be to find the common ground. Determine where the two mythos overlap or cross and use that as a foundation to build on.

The third rule will be to not be corny.

I figure this means keeping both characters when they appear pure. Frank is the Frank we have always loved on the show. He won't start quipping lines in Arnold Schwarzzeneger fashion. No "Stick around." or "Remember when I told you I'd kill you last? I lied." And Pinhead when he appears would be the magestic Black Pope of Hell that we met in the first movie...

"Because of your desire, you sought out the puzzlebox. You opened it and we came. This does not make you worthy, Deacon Fox. You desire to become one of us. You believe yourself worthy but you are untested. Your flesh is weak. Many are called but few are chosen."

- Pinhead, Lament's Configurations

I figure not being corney will mean...

- Frank will not open the box and be required to go to Hell thus avoiding a fix he needs to get out of.

- no direct confrontation between Frank and Pinhead as a basic rule (lest it should devolve into a monster vs monster story) though I must admit i do have locked away in my brain a conversation between the two that would result in some inter-character conflict.

and that's all I'll say for now.

Maxx

PS - Have you meen to The Hellbound Web? It's a forum much like this one in how it functions but while that one espouses to a celebration of Hellraiser, it is a forum in the throws of chaos. This board is so well maintained and structured one would think that it were run by the Cenobites themselves!

Can't you see it?...

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Visit Maxx's Blog - The New Millennium: The Time is Now - for the newest ideas to come from the mind of Maxx Blackwell.

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"THE ANTICHRIST DOES NOT COME AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED. WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED, THE REIGN OF THE JUST BEGINS; THEN COMES THE ANTICHRIST, TO CONFOUND THE JUST, AND THEN COMES THE FINAL BATTLE..."

- Alinardo of Grottaferrata, December 1323 (The Name of the Rose, Umberto Eco)

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I have been to the Hellbound Web.

I liked Inferno and Hellseeker, but the lastest sequel in the Hellraiser series (Deader) just was god awful.

"Don't tug on that, you never know what it might be attached to. "- Buckaroo Banzai

 

"There are no answers- only choices."

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Maxx,

I don't know if you have visited this site but it is an astounding work of art that I had to mention. To describe it would not do it justice but it is dedicated to the pursuit of the numerous configurations designed by Le Marchand. It is, for want of an appropriate description, a site that designs and sells the most elaborate and beautiful puzzle boxes, weaving them into the Hellraiser mythos with psuedo-historical accounts of their creation, biographical notes and images and detailed information relating to the demonic artistry employed in their symbols and functions. I was so taken aback by this site that it inspired me to create a Millennium Configuration, another side project ongoing in those rare spare-time moments, and whether a Hellraiser fan or no I defy anyone not to be gob-smacked by the degree of brilliance shown by the creators of this site. The boxes deserve to be in art galleries..........

The Pyramid Gallery

eth.snafu

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The Merova Configuration

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I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. Leviticus 26:28-30

Sorry it took so long to assist Maxx,

Definition: A cenobite is a monk who lives together with other monks. Pachomius is considered the founder of the cenobitic arrangement (of the monastery) because he gathered together the ascetic monks, who had been living in their own separate cells, under one roof. Each of these ascetics became a cenobite. A cenobite is therefore the opposite of a hermit (eremite).

Deuteronomy 28:53

Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you.

Deuteronomy 28:55

and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating.

Judges 8:7

Then Gideon replied, "Just for that, when the LORD has given Zebah and Zalmunna into my hand, I will tear your flesh with desert thorns and briers."

Job 19:22

Why do you pursue me as God does? Will you never get enough of my flesh?

Ezekiel 32:5

I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains.

And on and on and on.............

To my mind Hellraiser is a modern, and graphic, portrayal of the death and resurrection myths of the ancient and modern world. Experience of the resurrection theme in the natural world led to the formation of a resurrection archetype in the collective unconscious of the human race. This archetype is the source of myths of dying and reviving pagan gods. All in all, in God's providence the resurrection archetype prepared human beings for God's decisive action within human history: the bodily resurrection of Jesus from death. This archetype exists in all people and all mythologies and it is this ancient truth that Clive Barker experiments with so successfully. Barker stated that he wanted the Hellraiser continuity to stay well clear of any Judeo-Christian analogy but if this was his intention then, I'm afraid, he failed so dramatically.

The greatest example of Christian homage finds it's origins in the book of Job. In this book the implacable angel, Satan, tests Job with a sequence of ever more malign smitings but it is evident from the prologue in Job that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. Satan works in opposition to God, though not entirely able to take action without consent. It is interesting that Satan says....."Skin for skin! All that man has he will give for his life. But now, put forth your hand and touch his bone and his flesh and you will see that he will curse (bless) you to your face..." analogous of the Cenobite's preoccupation with flesh: the ultimate mode of human control and fear. The question of Angel versus Devil is a fascinating one. Judaism, and many pre-Christian religions, were devoid of any insecurities with this issue. They believed in a pantheon of entities capable of great beauty and even greater evil and they saw no need for a separate entity to fulfill this function. The believers of Christianity were perturbed by this insistence and sorted the wheat from the chaff, denoting which members of the Heavenly Court were devils and which were Angels but the Bible is explicit as to where the origin of evil of truly lies..."I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things." and "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and Jehovah not have done it?".....and.....well suffice to say the list goes on and on.

What Hellraiser does do is play upon the Crucifixion/Resurrection story and even goes so far as to pastiche it in the final lament of Frank in Hellraiser One: strung between the chains in the crucifixion pose he draws an analogy between his own suffering and the passion of Christ...."Jesus wept!"...which in my mind is the most chilling scene of the whole series of films. This graphic use of chains, tearing at the flesh, is most probably an unconscious a commentary on the cilice used in the practice of corporal mortification. This spiked chain worn around the thigh is endorsed by, amongst many others, Josemarie Escriva who wrote to followers of the Opus Dei movement that "Blessed be Pain! Loved be Pain! Sanctified be Pain" and "What has been lost through the flesh the flesh should pay back." Just when you though things couldn't get anymore Pinheadish I noticed his surname is an anagram of viscera - nice. But it is not only here that we see a possible origin for the Cenobite's use of flesh as a mode of transformation, it is in evidence throughout antiquity. The Cathars (Gnostics) believed that the world was created by an evil God and that all material things, including human flesh, were evil: transcending and escaping this prison of flesh was the cornerstone of their beliefs with regards to salvation: which sets Pinhead's stall much closer to the early Christian sects than Satanism which honours flesh above spirit and sees it as more important that a tool of transformation.

In the Hellraiser Comic (sad isn't it) there is a chillingly macabre story of a woman who is raped and impregnated by a Cenobite. She is to bear a child who is the living incarnation of the Lament Configuration, the truth and the way, and it is through this child that the Lord of the Labyrinth can be accessed. I don't think there is any need to point out which cornerstone of Christian faith this emulates.

Ultimately, what fascinates me about the Cenobites is that, evil though they may be, they require the conscious act of summoning to invoke them, they are not random agents of chaos but appear only at the behest of the puzzles solver. In Hellraiser 2 we are shown that they will not come upon a soul who has solved the puzzle at the intention of another and we are treated, throughout, to examples of characters who bargain for leniency if they have solved the puzzle unaware of it's function: the act of informed consent summons the Cenobites not just the solving of the Lament Configuration....."Ask And You Shall Receive. Knock and the door shall be opened..." Quite so.

Gosh...so much more to say on this subject....must get back to you on this when I have more time.

eth.snafu

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  • 2 years later...
Angels and Demons, Who is Sammael?

https://millennium-thisiswhoweare.net/tiwwa/i...Samael&st=0

Question, Samael in Powers, Principalities, Thrones

https://millennium-thisiswhoweare.net/tiwwa/i...4&hl=Samuel

Identity of Samael

https://millennium-thisiswhoweare.net/tiwwa/i...8&hl=Samael

Again I thank you for any assistance or opinions you have to offer.

Thanks,

Maxx Blackwell

Hi Maxx,

Did these efforts ever produce fruit? I see it has been over two years so I though I would ask. The links above are outdated.

I did find an interesting link to add to the investigation...

Samael.

Good topic.

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  • 4 years later...

Hello everyone! Thanks ethsnafu for your further research. I'm sorry I wasn''t around to recieve it in a timely manner. In answer to Thomas' question, no progress was made beyond my first chapter. It's been a ridiculously busy time since I set aside the project. In the meantime it seems my writing has improved which is a good thing with respect to this project.

II have a project I need to finish before I can come back to this one, but I'm making notes so when the way is clear I may start down this path again!

Visit Maxx's Blog - The New Millennium: The Time is Now - for the newest ideas to come from the mind of Maxx Blackwell.

gallery_1248_65_32681.jpg

"THE ANTICHRIST DOES NOT COME AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED. WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED, THE REIGN OF THE JUST BEGINS; THEN COMES THE ANTICHRIST, TO CONFOUND THE JUST, AND THEN COMES THE FINAL BATTLE..."

- Alinardo of Grottaferrata, December 1323 (The Name of the Rose, Umberto Eco)

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Please keep us posted Maxx.

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"Time is too slow for those who wait; too swift for those who fear;

too long for  those who grieve; too short for those who rejoice.

But for those who love, time is eternity."

(Jane Fellowes)

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