A Unique Perspective

[vain68]

Let me be the first to echo Ethsnafu's assertion that the group was not intent on killing Catherine to capture Frank 'as their own.' I highly doubt this. Such an assertion lacks requisite circumspect---however, do not let me detract from the brilliant ramblings scattered throughout this board. If anything, story writers for some type of MillenniuM movie have some serious fodder. Notwithstanding, we can see that Catherine's demise was one of the story plot 'holes' in an otherwise brilliant series (I have yet to view SIII, but am extremely eager to do so). What was genius in having them split apart ended in disarray with her death. However, lest us not forget that the producers did not know towards the end whether a SIII was going to be a reality (at least as far as I have read) and so her death may have been a way to have some 'closure' to a series that might not be renewed. In returning to the foci of this thread however, we must pause for a moment and take a very serious look at the episodes which may be, in their own right, the fulcrum of the brilliance of the series:

#1: Midnight of the Century

#2: Luminary

#3: A Room with No View.

Let us examine these episodes further, and before I add my thoughts, I will await relevant commentary on these episodes in the context of the psychological development of the characters as well as the bridge between 'capturing' evil (SI) and understanding what evil is (SII).

Vv

Edited July 7, 2005 by vain68

[4th Horseman]

Let me be the first to echo Ethsnafu's assertion that the group was not intent on killing Catherine to capture Frank 'as their own.'  I highly doubt this.  Such an assertion lacks requisite circumspect---however, do not let me detract from the brilliant ramblings scattered throughout this board.  If anything, story writers for some type of MillenniuM movie have some serious fodder.  Notwithstanding, we can see that Catherine's demise was one of the story plot 'holes' in an otherwise brilliant series (I have yet to view SIII, but am extremely eager to do so).  What was genius in having them split apart ended in disarray with her death.  However, lest us not forget that the producers did not know towards the end whether a SIII was going to be a reality (at least as far as I have read) and so her death may have been a way to have some 'closure' to a series that might not be renewed.  In returning to the foci of this thread however, we must pause for a moment and take a very serious look at the episodes which may be, in their own right, the fulcrum of the brilliance of the series:

#1: Midnight of the Century

#2: Luminary

#3: A Room with No View.

Let us examine these episodes further, and before I add my thoughts, I will await relevant commentary on these episodes in the context of the psychological development of the characters as well as the bridge between 'capturing' evil (SI) and understanding what evil is (SII).

Vv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have now sufficiently recovered from the whipping i just got behind the woodshed. I had posted at one time that Catherine's demise was written into the story because it had become a burden, in addition to the uncertaintly of a 3rd season at the time. What i have tried to do is have some fun, thats what we are ultimately here for, isnt it? All i was trying to do is offer another path to be trodden down, unique from all the others, yet arriving at the same central core idea..Who amongst us can accurately and factually state with the highest degree of arrogance that they alone possess the insight into just what Morgan, Wong, or even Carter was trying to depict in either season, or what direction their intent was for the various characters. ITS ALL INTERPRETATIONS, PERCEPTIONS, IDEAS...Immediately following this post, i shall not attempt any further comment on this particular thread..we seem to be like the perverbial joke about economists:

You can line up all the economists side by side until they circle the globe, and still not reach an agreement....

I could go back and give you many, many reasons why the Group would consider Catherine a threat to their ties with Frank. The idea of stringing out the relationship during the ENTIRE 2nd season was both exhausting and painful to watch, spiralling downward, episode by episode, until it actually became quite annoying. Would you consider an alternative reason for her death to be that a reconciliation in the 3rd season would have continued to temper Frank's abilities,distracted by her incessant demands to leave the group and put "family first"? And what to make of Jordan? Catherine would have been, by previous example, even more fiercely protective of her, stifling whatever gift she had as well?.

I like your reason to an extent, that she was killed off because of the "closure" issue, but IF the uncertainty of a 3rd season was the driving factor (which i find it hard to believe that they didn't see it coming any earlier than it did), then why only fill one hole? What about the matter of Lucy Butler, what about the entire premise of what the show was based on, prophecy and secular beliefs in the end of the world? I would find it nearly impossible to believe that the needs of the one outweighed the needs of the many in that only one issue was addressed, at the expense of a multitude of others. Were we to assume that Lucy just vanished after S2? And even given the fact that S3 was given life at the last possible moment, that particular enigma STILL remained a mystery at the conclusion of S3 as well. Last but certainly not least, how about Jordan's gift which would only grow stronger as she matured. And what about the group's interest in her? If i remember right, there was NEVER anything more than a cursory interest in her, most certainly not to the degree of children such as Danielle Barbakow, Claire Mckenna, etc..In retrospect...

We now know that there was to be a 3rd season, but at the time of S2's end, none of those involved supposedly had any clue, the shows survival obviously being driven by rumor, speculation, etc.

So why only one piece of the puzzle? I dont think ANYONE can answer that to any sufficient conclusion..

So, onward and forward to the 3 episodes you have mentioned...I shall take some time, sit back, and watch others express their opinions, outlooks, perceptions...

Till the Last Change..Be Done..

The Fourth Horseman..

[vain68]

4th,

Do not for a moment consider yourself taken to the woodshed. You will come to see a general underlying sarcasm to my commentary which only can be understood in the context of my overall personality. Consider my ramblings a sort of mock humor if you will. At any rate, epigenetic principles can certainly be applied to the demise of Catherine. Any one could have validity and any one certainly could be argued to have merit within a givin context.

You bring up some excellent points regarding why only one aspect of a much larger undertaking was 'partitioned off.' For example, as you astutely note, what about Jordan--her gift--, Lucy Butler, et al.? I think a central questoin is whether Catherine indeed did temper Frank's abilities---his gift. Although she is most definitely an impingement against the purity of his gift, we do not yet see her outright invalidating the gift or otherwise rendering his powers impotent. However, as you also allude to, perhaps this time was coming. One can only surmise.

Further, let us consider for a moment the central tenent--or premise--of the show. I would make the argument that if we accept that the central premise was prophecy and secular beliefs in the end of the world, I would say this was most fully developed in SII; while we have the quotations in SI and we have serial type killings predicated on related ideas, and we have the "MillenniuM" group, I don't think the emergence of prophecy and secularism was as developed as it was in SII. That said, perhaps the filling of only one hole can be subsumed under the notion of 'destruction of hope.'

Interestingly, for those that watched the bonus materials on SI (I believe)--specifically the making of the intro--we are confronted with the idea that the lady collapsing (underneath the entrace to the culvert) represented "A Loss of Hope" the final collapse of human spirit and will. We are also confronted with Carter's statements that the yellow house 'admist the chaos and evil' was a source of hope. The yellow in the house was gone at the end of SI, but perhaps Catherine's death--her taking--symbolized the loss of hope, the loss of spirit, the will to live which would have been a fitting ending to SII. Other characters, particularly Lucy Butler (who by the way I find amazingly complex) were nonetheless not as intrically tied to the notion of hope that Catherine was. Relatedly, but no less relevant, oftentimes in genius we find sickness, and it was Catherine perhaps that represented Frank's hope for "normality."

Let us consider:

In other words, certain attainments of the soul and the intellect are impossible without disease, without insanity, without spirtual crime, and the great invalids are crucified victims, sacrificed to humanity and in its advancement, to the broadening of its feeling and knowledge--in short, to its more sublime health...The force us to re-evaluate the concepts of 'disease' and 'health,' the relation of sickness and life; they teach us to be cautious in our approach to the idea of 'disease,' for we are too prone always to give it a biological minus sign.

--Thomas Mann (as cited in Cleckley)

Finally, we are confronted with Jordan's obvious gift. And here, 4th is where I agree most vividly with your assertions. Jordan represented a landmine that was not tapped. And certainly, a case can be made that if indeed the producers saw some type of end at the conclusion of SII, they would have made an effort to tie up her character much more coherently.

This said, let me fade away into the nocturnal abyss that is night's darkness........

Vv

Edited July 7, 2005 by vain68

[4th Horseman]

4th,

Do not for a moment consider yourself taken to the woodshed.  You will come to see a general underlying sarcasm to my commentary which only can be understood in the context of my overall personality.  Consider my ramblings a sort of mock humor if you will.  At any rate, epigenetic principles can certainly be applied to the demise of Catherine.  Any one could have validity and any one certainly could be argued to have merit within a givin context.

You bring up some excellent points regarding why only one aspect of a much larger undertaking was 'partitioned off.'  For example, as you astutely note, what about Jordan--her gift--, Lucy Butler, et al.?  I think a central questoin is whether Catherine indeed did temper Frank's abilities---his gift.  Although she is most definitely an impingement against the purity of his gift, we do not yet see her outright invalidating the gift or otherwise rendering his powers impotent.  However, as you also allude to, perhaps this time was coming.  One can only surmise.

Further, let us consider for a moment the central tenent--or premise--of the show.  I would make the argument that if we accept that the central premise was prophecy and secular beliefs in the end of the world, I would say this was most fully developed in SII; while we have the quotations in SI and we have serial type killings predicated on related ideas, and we have the "MillenniuM" group, I don't think the emergence of prophecy and secularism was as developed as it was in SII.  That said, perhaps the filling of only one hole can be subsumed under the notion of 'destruction of hope.' 

Interestingly, for those that watched the bonus materials on SI (I believe)--specifically the making of the intro--we are confronted with the idea that the lady collapsing (underneath the entrace to the culvert) represented "A Loss of Hope" the final collapse of human spirit and will.  We are also confronted with Carter's statements that the yellow house 'admist the chaos and evil' was a source of hope.  The yellow in the house was gone at the end of SI, but perhaps Catherine's death--her taking--symbolized the loss of hope, the loss of spirit, the will to live which would have been a fitting ending to SII.  Other characters, particularly Lucy Butler (who by the way I find amazingly complex) were nonetheless not as intrically tied to the notion of hope that Catherine was.  Relatedly, but no less relevant, oftentimes in genius we find sickness, and it was Catherine perhaps that represented Frank's hope for "normality."

Let us consider:

Finally, we are confronted with Jordan's obvious gift.  And here, 4th is where I agree most vividly with your assertions.  Jordan represented a landmine that was not tapped.  And certainly, a case can be made that if indeed the producers saw some type of end at the conclusion of SII, they would have made an effort to tie up her character much more coherently.

This said, let me fade away into the nocturnal abyss that is night's darkness........

Vv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL :grin: Vain68...like yourself, i also possess a degree of sarcasm as well. I was not offended nor was i angered, i knew that if i left that post hanging in the breeze without any substance, it would be addressed. I was remiss in furthering it to completion, and whats worse, i wasnt happy with the context, but was distracted and forgot to delete it....

A wonderful insight you have about Butler not being tied to the "hope" Catherine represented. I never thought of it that way, but very eloquently put..and quite right you are. Frank's fleeting hope of reconciliation only matched by his encounters with Butler. Hope was really found in sparse quantity throughout MillenniuM. Even as far back as Gehenna, it was made apparent that something wasn't quite right with the concept of the "yellow house", that was even discussed by Nutter in the commentary at the end of S1...

anyway, onto much more enlightening topics....

The Fourth Horseman...

I too must retire to slumber thru morphic oceans...have a great night..

[Raven Wolf]

I just love reading you 2 guys' exchanges....!

[Guest ZeusFaber]

In returning to the foci of this thread however, we must pause for a moment and take a very serious look at the episodes which may be, in their own right, the fulcrum of the brilliance of the series:

#1: Midnight of the Century

#2: Luminary

#3: A Room with No View.

This appears to be an interesting area to delve into. First let me ask for some clarification -- are you suggesting that these three episodes represent the ultimate high-points of the series?

If so, I must disagree. To add my opinion, I would say they are largely some of the mediocre points of S2, which I have already expressed to be my least favourite of the three.

"Midnight of the Century" is perhaps the best of the three IMO, offering a personal look at Frank and his family without becoming maudlin or boring. The flip side of this in my eyes would be "Luminary", which does not succeed in striking this balance. I have to admit that I find it rather overrated. While the characters of Frank, Catherine and Peter come out well, the plot fails to hold down my interest and the episodes is visually uninspired.

"A Room With No View" gets points for featuring Lucy Butler and expanding upon the enigma of her two-sides (the feminine seductress and the masculine brute). However, the ultimate message, that the Devil wants everyone to be ordinary is not nearly as horrifying as her previous appearance. Again, good but not great.

Apologies if I have misunderstood your original statement and thus taken the thread in the wrong direction.

[vain68]

Zeus,

welcome aboard my friend, welcome aboard.

Let me further elaborate on why this tripartite grouping does indeed, at least as far as SI and SII go, represent the most fully developed aspects of the series. Let me add of course, that this is indeed my opinion, but I believe I can argue strongly for this. When we evaluate what are high points, we must empiricize or 'empirically define' what is it that makes them high points. If, as has been suggested on various threads throughout this board, we consider high points those episodes that are the most horrifying, the most ghastly--no matter how coherent the plot--then of course we might arrive at a different conclusion. However, it is my contention that high points in a series such as MM must be assessed from the perspective of inner workings, of sublimal underlying messages, and most importantly in terms of overall coherence and organization in linking the other epidsodes of the show. Of course, should we use definition number #1, then episodes like Pilot might be viewed as a high point. However, using what I believe is a more integrated view of high points, let us evaluate first MNOC.

MNOC was the first and perhaps the only look into the intergenerational portrait of Frank's psychological development. Here we come to see his early life, which set in train his ultimate personality development. Of course, we can not argue that his personality or his 'gift' was what lead him to his field of choice in the first place. In speaking of his field, I will eschew the term "profiler" and use instead the term "explorer of evil." While in SI he is indeed a consultant profiler (and this may have been Carter's vision a la the Academy group) we see in SII (as I have alluded to before) that Frank's journey is much more than simply profiling and apprehending. We are lead to believe that Frank's mother committed suicide, spurred in large part by her depression. Such loss no doubt influences Frank's journey in understanding evil--but more subtley constructs such as 'hope,' 'alone,' and/or 'despair.' Note that many of these same words are used in the intro particularly in SI. There is no doubt then, that Frank's experiences in early life are what at the least honed his gift, and as such, such an episode provides coherence to why he acted as a consultant in the first place. It was not only a bridge to SI, but a bridge to the future of SII where we examine evil, loss, grief more holistically. Thus, as a 'double bridge' it provides linkages and coherence. In addition, aspects of faith are brought forth against the backdrop of Christmas, furthering a more holistic examination of loss, grief, pain, abandonment. As such, a level of organization to the series is provided where heretofore has only be obliquely hinted at.

Luminary: Rather than considering cinematic elements or realism per se, consider again the deeper issues. From Pilot on, we are tuned in, almost subconciously to the struggle between Frank's need to be alone with his gift and his attachment to his wife and family. If we accept that genius or excellence can not be interfered with by anyone or anything to function optimally, and the related notion that attachment is a fundamental need of all humans, we see the organizing framework of the 'struggle' throughout the whole series. This struggle exists as background noise throughout all of SI and SII. It organizes both of them. Let us consider some relevant notions:

"The thing that makes you exceptional, if you are at all, is inevitably that which must also make you lonely." --Lorraine Hansberry

Consider a relevant quote from the movie Heat; here we see that to be the best bank robber one must

"Have no attachments"

As soon as the head man (DeNiro) does form an attachment, things go down hill for him in regards to his uncanny ability to maintain his excellence in bank-robbing (there are other factors, but let us ignore those for the moment).

In addition, not only does Frank struggle, but so does Catherine and her pouring over astrology to understand her situation, to understand Frank, and to understand herself, represents this. Again, from an organizational perspective, this episode is not matched by others that may be more griping, may be more enthralling.

Before continuing to the final episode I have mentioned (A Room with No View) let me pause for a moment, and await reaction and redaction. I hope I have made the "organizational" aspect of this clear. If I have not, I will resume the undertaking.

Let me adjourn for the moment..........

[Guest ZeusFaber]

Interesting thoughs. I am beginning to understand your viewpoint better, but I do not believe I agree.

Whilst your case to recommend "MotC" is a strong one, and I do agree with many of the stregnths you draw out, I would not say that this propells the episode in its entirety onto the highest plane of "Millennium" as a unified whole.

Yes, it explores Frank's character in depth. Yes, it expands upon his familial connection both past and present resulting in an extended empathy. Yes, it gives us a deeper window into Frank's soul. However, as a complete episode, is it not without its flaws. Fundamentally, the character-study elements -- whilst high-brow and moving -- come at the expense of a wider plot. IMO, an episode cannot survive on character introspection alone, and whilst you may place such factors as atmosphere, visuals, horror and suspense in a hierarchy that devalues them below character-analysis, they are nontheless overshadowed somewhat.

I am not attempting to devalue "MotC", far from it, but I would merely suggest that it is not the perfect candidate for a representation of the series' ebb and flow in microcosm.

I would say much the same about "Luminary". Yes, it has depth an an exploration of character on a strong level, yet as a piece of drama, I find it more than a little lacking. Pacing and story quality are equally important. Some may envision a hierarchy with character introspection at the top, but in our postmodern times I would argue that all of these elements are equal in a continuum, in the same way that Shakespeare is not neccessarily more culturally significant than a lifestyle magazine.

I would argue in favour of the pilot, which from your comments I detect a slight hint of negativity (forgive me if I have misread you in this regard). I think it certainly sets up a foundation of equilibrium, showing us the life Frank and his family strive for, the goal of a safe-haven upon returning to home ground, and also establishes the themes of responsibility, how the fight against evil cannot be simply retired from. Furthermore, I would say that the pilot succeeds spectacularly in combining these elements with a solid plot, vivid horror, excellent pacing, and visual artistry.

If I were to suggest a trinity to illustrate the arcing themes of the series in microcosm, in opposition to your selections, I would perhaps nominate the following:

1. Pilot

2. Lamentation

3. Seven and One

At this point I will again clear the floor and make room for reactions and counterpoints. Needless to say, this has all just been my opinions.

[4th Horseman]

Zeus,

welcome aboard my friend, welcome aboard.

Let me further elaborate on why this tripartite grouping does indeed, at least as far as SI and SII go, represent the most fully developed aspects of the series.  Let me add of course, that this is indeed my opinion, but I believe I can argue strongly for this.  When we evaluate what are high points, we must empiricize or 'empirically define' what is it that makes them high points.  If, as has been suggested on various threads throughout this board, we consider high points those episodes that are the most horrifying, the most ghastly--no matter how coherent the plot--then of course we might arrive at a different conclusion.  However, it is my contention that high points in a series such as MM must be assessed from the perspective of inner workings, of sublimal underlying messages, and most importantly in terms of overall coherence and organization in linking the other epidsodes of the show.  Of course, should we use definition number #1, then episodes like Pilot might be viewed as a high point.  However, using what I believe is a more integrated view of high points, let us evaluate first MNOC.

MNOC was the first and perhaps the only look into the intergenerational portrait of Frank's psychological development.  Here we come to see his early life, which set in train his ultimate personality development.  Of course, we can not argue that his personality or his 'gift' was what lead him to his field of choice in the first place.  In speaking of his field, I will eschew the term "profiler" and use instead the term "explorer of evil."  While in SI he is indeed a consultant profiler (and this may have been Carter's vision a la the Academy group) we see in SII (as I have alluded to before) that Frank's journey is much more than simply profiling and apprehending.  We are lead to believe that Frank's mother committed suicide, spurred in large part by her depression.  Such loss no doubt influences Frank's journey in understanding evil--but more subtley constructs such as 'hope,' 'alone,' and/or 'despair.'  Note that many of these same words are used in the intro particularly in SI.  There is no doubt then, that Frank's experiences in early life are what at the least honed his gift, and as such, such an episode provides coherence to why he acted as a consultant in the first place.  It was not only a bridge to SI, but a bridge to the future of SII where we examine evil, loss, grief more holistically.  Thus, as a 'double bridge' it provides linkages and coherence.  In addition, aspects of faith are brought forth against the backdrop of Christmas, furthering a more holistic examination of loss, grief, pain, abandonment.  As such, a level of organization to the series is provided where heretofore has only be obliquely hinted at.

Luminary: Rather than considering cinematic elements or realism per se, consider again the deeper issues.  From Pilot on, we are tuned in, almost subconciously to the struggle between Frank's need to be alone with his gift and his attachment to his wife and family.  If we accept that genius or excellence can not be interfered with by anyone or anything to function optimally, and the related notion that attachment is a fundamental need of all humans, we see the organizing framework of the 'struggle' throughout the whole series.  This struggle exists as background noise throughout all of SI and SII.  It organizes both of them.  Let us consider some relevant notions:

Consider a relevant quote from the movie Heat; here we see that to be the best bank robber one must

As soon as the head man (DeNiro) does form an attachment, things go down hill for him in regards to his uncanny ability to maintain his excellence in bank-robbing (there are other factors, but let us ignore those for the moment).

In addition, not only does Frank struggle, but so does Catherine and her pouring over astrology to understand her situation, to understand Frank, and to understand herself, represents this.  Again, from an organizational perspective, this episode is not matched by others that may be more griping, may be more enthralling.

Before continuing to the final episode I have mentioned (A Room with No View) let me pause for a moment, and await reaction and redaction.  I hope I have made the "organizational" aspect of this clear.  If I have not, I will resume the undertaking.

Let me adjourn for the moment..........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another astute post my friend...the easy concept to grab on to, particularily in the first season was true to your quote of:

"the most horrifying, the most ghastly--no matter how coherent the plot" -

the progression and sophistication of evil from the "Pilot" to "Paper Dove" left us in anticipation of just what new elements could be drawn from the hellborn wells of depravity. I don't think that taken in the context of what Carter was trying to present, that criticism of said expectations is warranted. How many of us cringed at the site of the poor soul buried alive with his eyes, mouth and hands sewn shut, yet sat down the very next week and wondered how could that be expanded on, and just what were we about to see..

However, with S2 and the direction Morgan and Wong decided to take, that all seemed to change. MOTC was, to me, the very first EMOTIONAL episode that began to smooth the hard edge the show was given during S1. There was so much diversity in MOTC, from Frank's recollection of wanting the train, to seeing himself and his father across the street, then turning back to see his mother as one of the women at the manger. How many of us, whose mother had died at a special time in a child's life, Christmas, wouldn't see flashes of her presence everywhere. We all think of our mothers as angels, so the parallel between the two contained in the show was well done. I found the most poignant moment to be the split between father and son, born of misunderstanding and mistrust, healed by truth and sorrow. What a wonderful scene between Lance and McGavin...

What i also found to be of some interest was the exclusion of Frank's brother Thomas, well after his introduction in the S1 episode of "Sacrament". I am not sure why he was omitted after introducing him earlier, perhaps it would have not been conducive to the story line..

I believe this is also the first episode, correct me if i am wrong, where we see Jordan share the same power as her father in seeing the "fetches" at the end, making their way to church in search of those who would be their companions.

ZeusFaber - i dont think there was an intent for a "wider plot". The show stayed within the boundries of what it was meant to be, without the inclusion of a sense of evil that would have competed for the viewers attention. There were only a couple of "supernatural" moments, if you will, with Frank talking to the angel in the garden, and Jordan claiming to draw with her dead grandmother, but both of those were fairly innoculous, their occurrences a sidenote to the story, quickly forgotten in the essence that was MOTC....

Dont know if any of my points are salient, sane or even understandable...in regards to Luminary and A Room With no View, i will have to defer for the moment to someone more familiar with each..

Till the Last Change...Be Done..

The Fourth Horseman

[Raven Wolf]

First... (((hugs))) to Horseman, and welcome to Zeus.

2nd... my 2 cents.

IMO... Catherine posed a threat to the group from day 1. Every time Frank showed that she, and his family were more important than the group, he got an argument from Peter. IMO.... they were responsible for the Polaroid stalker, and when that failed to get rid of her, they did away with her any way they could. Remember when Frank was asking about the vaccine, and demanding... "And their families???" If it was group policy not to provide the vaccine for the families of the group, Peter would have freaked out. He had a wife and 3 daughters. He never would have stood by while Barbara and his girls died. He knew what was going to happen.

Now... Laura. She was a group plot that backfired. They knew she had abilities like Frank, and thrust her into his life, at a time when he was vulnerable. Almost like a conciliation prize. I believe she cared deeply for Frank, and gave him her dose of the vaccine to try to help him. She couldn't save both Jordan AND Catherine, but she could save one of them.