A Unique Perspective

[Guest ZeusFaber]

ZeusFaber - i dont think there was an intent for a "wider plot". The show stayed within the boundries of what it was meant to be,  without the inclusion of a sense of evil that would have competed for the viewers attention.

True enough, and while this is no reason to condemn "MotC", it also shows that it is not the perfect distillation of the wider series, IMO.

I am not attempting to argue that "MotC" is a bad episode, far from it. It is one of the better episodes of S2, and far less objectionable than the likes of "The Hand of Saint Sebastian" et al. My only argument is that there are other episodes that stand as greater candidates for the fulcrum points of the series in my eyes.

I would also object to the notion that S1 was all about gore at the expense of a coherent plot -- far from it.

Edited July 8, 2005 by ZeusFaber

[4th Horseman]

True enough, and while this is no reason to condemn "MotC", it also shows that it is not the perfect distillation of the wider series, IMO.

I am not attempting to argue that "MotC" is a bad episode, far from it.  It is one of the better episodes of S2, and far less objectionable than the likes of "The Hand of Saint Sebastian" et al.  My only argument is that there are other episodes that stand as greater candidates for the fulcrum points of the series in my eyes.

I would also object to the notion that S1 was all about gore at the expense of a coherent plot -- far from it.

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agreed...nor was i attempting to lessen your opinion of MOTC...personally i found the episode to be one of my "lasting" favorites. Free from the burden of gore or evil ever present, it showed the more touching side of Frank's character. Thats not to say it didnt have its faults, but overall, one of the more enduring episodes of either season (s3 still not availiable here in the U.S.)...

re: coherent plot...I agree as well...for evil is rarely coherent...we see its preposterous and chaotic marrow each and every day, becoming more recondite with each occurrence. There are no conspicous, manifest laws that govern evil..it is chaotic by nature, so by confining its essence within the taboos of restrictive draconian existences, it effectuates a sense of contradiction...

Till the Last Change....Be Done...

The Fourth Horseman..

[Guest canadian girl]

Wow! I'll bet we couldn't have a discussion like this on a "Friends" message board!

[vain68]

Gentlemen (Zeus and 4th),

let us return to our cogent discussion once again. Zeus, lets address your concerns at this time and I see a very critical point you mentioned which buttresses your own claims quite nicely. That point, in a nutshell is that character introspection alone can not carry an episode. If we accept this, then indeed your argument is tight and compact. However, we must again consider the organizational perspective of things. It can be argued that up to the point of MNOTC, we have inchoate support for the psychological functioning of the main character (Frank). Keeping in mind that, to a degree, each episode followed (even if in a nonlinear fashion) from the previous ones, we see then that such an episode could survive on its own, and survive quite well. I think a hallmark of that episode is that it established, for the first time, that there was going to be a fundamental linkage of the series at perhaps the most important level--the psychological, the personal, the corporeal. In considering organization and coherence, let me offer a quick example from my own work that may allow us to understand the concept a bit better.

Consider an infant. The particular behavioral repertoire the infant uses to signal distress may be vastly different from the fully developed adult, but both distress signalling has at its core the 'signal for help.' Discrete behaviors, plots, subplots may change, but organization (purposiveness) does not. This is how I see MNOTC. We do not have the usual hunting and apprehending of evil, but at the very core (organization) we do indeed address the same internal workings in Pilot as we do in MNOTC.

Let me also add that I do not believe the early episodes suffered from incoherent plots

we consider high points those episodes that are the most horrifying, the most ghastly--no matter how coherent the plot--

And Zeus I would most def. agree that Pilot was exceptionally done.

Exceptionally.

I would certainly rank Pilot easily in the top 5 episodes of all time. Where it is situated in that mix I can not say at the moment however.

Excellent post Zeus excellent.

Edited July 8, 2005 by vain68

[Guest ZeusFaber]

Agreed, "MotC" certainly did succeed in this regard, adding depth and a psychological insight into Frank.

I would merely suggest that, from only my own point of view, the likes of "Seven and One", "The Sound of Snow", and perhaps "Borrowed Time" succeed in synergising this level of insight with a tense and ingaging story plot in a way that "MotC" does not.

My compliments on an engaging and thought-provoking discussion, btw.

Edited July 8, 2005 by ZeusFaber

[Raven Wolf]

Wow!  I'll bet we couldn't have a discussion like this on a "Friends" message board!  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[4th Horseman]

Wow!  I'll bet we couldn't have a discussion like this on a "Friends" message board!  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

agreed....but thats what makes THIS board special...there is so much variations in interpretations here that we could go on for quite some time.....feel free to join in...every opinion and perception is very much welcomed...good to meet ya c.g.

Till the Last Change...Be Done..

The Fourth Horseman...

[Guest canadian girl]

I feel a little too intimidated to join in. The comments are so thoughtful and intelligent.

[Raven Wolf]

Please don't feel intimidated! I did, too, for the first few months I was here, but I learned that no-one here will bite... (much! lol )

[Guest ModernDayMoriarty]

I won't repeat my views on the various seasons too much as I have explained them at length in the past. Suffice it to say that I broadly agree with ZeusFaber. S1 is the best, S2 the worst and S3 is an underrated and very intriguing rebirth. I would only reiterate that whilst S1 was great it did have very significant flaws which needed to be addressed.

The Millennium Group were badly explained and left out of most of the episodes in all but the most peripheral ways. This may be okay in a short season but over 20+ episodes you start to wonder if they are ever going to feature. S2 corrected this but perhaps went too far and focused so totally on the group that Frank was often left out in the cold (Owls/Roosters is a classic example).

The feel of the S2 is the subject of some debate but I believe that it was wholly necessary to alieveate at least in part, the darkness of S1. Frank had reached his lowest point - he had endured a whole season of near unending terror and tragedy seeing the loss of at least 2 good friends and becoming estranged from family and reletives. S2 simply could not sustain this because the viewers would eventually decide enough was enough. Frank needed to see more of the wonder, not just the horror.

The quirks of Morgan and Wong were erratic but occasionally excellent. The humour was hammy and out of place, the group became something rather odd but still there were flashs of brillance. The Poloroid Stalker arc (long neglected in S1) is resolved very well indeed. It is unfortunate that M+W's interpretation clashes with earlier facts but the fact of the matter is that their ideas for the PS were very, very good. The comet gazing madman determined to educate Frank in the horrors he has seen in the stars and from the nefarious Millennium Group made 'The Beginning and the End' a remarkable episode indeed even if its execution was not always quite what it could have been.

Towns where evil manifested as vicious animals, cryptic warnings of the end times and the coming of a new hero (Frank) to replace the honoured dead also made 'Beware of the Dog' a winner in my eyes despite its very silly opening half hour. Witness also the excellent art decisions concerning Frank's house. In S1 the basement was dark and foreboding - it was filled with the darkness that Frank saw and he had to immerse himself in it to track down the evil. In S2 his whole house is cloaked in darkness. Even on sunny days the house is drenched in pitch black shadows. The rooms only get lighter when people like Jordan, Catherine and Lara are present. When Frank is alone or just with Peter, the house is usually dark and brooding representing the darkness that threatens to engulf Frank since his murder of the PS and the loss of his family. The lamps and the door of his house also resemble a leering demonic face staring down obscenely at Frank. This is most evident when he is alone (The Curse of Frank Black and Sense and Antisense both display the door demon prominently). When others are around it seems to flee (the lighting is softer as mentioned taking away the menace; also in The Hand of Saint Sebastian, the door is open when Peter arrives so we cannot see the 'face'.

It is the division between excellence/lightweight rubbish that infuriates me about S2. When it was good it was very very good but when it was bad...Anyway, I have more work than time as an X-Files victim once said so I have to go. So yes, S1 was wonderful but S2 had much to offer. It is just a crying shame it was never followed through.