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Guest ZeusFaber

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Guest ZeusFaber

eth,

Very interesting thoughts. This discussion has certainly helped me form a clearer picture of "Bardo Thodol" in my mind, and as a strong advocate of multiplicity, it is hearing all these theories, ideas, and background information that help me create my own reading.

I too had read about this deleteted scene with Watts and Mabius. To a large extent, I am glad it was cut, first because it changes the relationship between Mabius and Watts (giving Watts some kind of superiority which would clash with the idea that Watt's was under Mabius's thumb, hence his conflicting loyalties), and second because it would give too much power to Frank. I think it is better to keep the Group as the ones holding all the cards, which would fit with what MDMoriarty is saying about the Group luring others into their game by controling the enigmas. As the cut of the episode stands, I think it is better to see the final bowl that Frank holds as just an ordinary bowl, nothing more than a pice of visual and symbolic continuity.

As for Takashi's research and "an Apocalypse of our own creation", I am beginning to accept it more and more. I too had thought more of its implications with regard to "Goodbye to All That", but I had not considered links to the Marburg Virus as you point out. This too helps clarify matters.

Interesting that you mention the pre-publicity of a Seven Seal mytharc end to the season, I had no knowledge of that. I'd be interesting to read any comments that were made at the time. However, I wouldn't really say that the final 7 episodes, sequentially, could completely constitute this kind of Seven Sealed conclusion. Most notably, I would have to exclude "Darwin's Eye" and "Nostalgia" from this, as they are, essentially, the last couple of standalone stories. However, if we were to swap these two with "Matryoshka" and "Forcing the End", it is certainly more interconnected.

it is an astoundingly good episode and part of an astounding good run of them.

Hope it's not too bizarre a post to enjoy.

As I've been re-watching my S3 DVD set again, it really struck me what a great run of episode made up the second half, from "Borrowed Time" through to "Goodbye to All That".

And not too bizarre at all. I've always said that one of the best things about Millennium is that way it often requires extra reading and in depth discussion to fully appreicate it.

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I really think that attempting to fit the episodes here into a coherent mytharc requires so much patchwork, guesswork and suposition as to be extremely unwise to attempt in all but the most basic terms.
Absolutely Moriaty (forgive my abreviation), exactly my reaction when I learned that the final seven were intended as such but since they are a mytharc I have gleaned much enjoyment from immersing myself from the episodes trying to define it. It is difficult to do so for all the points you note and since only those that wrote know what it was truly intended to depict we will never know but there are coherent threads, strong and obvious, and looser, less defined hints to be found - the rest is Millennium Playdoh to mould as the viewer discovers their own unique view and understanding.

I appreciate that I have a creative interpretation of events but as there are no absolutes the beauty is in the formation and oration of these theories - something that really inspires me is reading such vastly different Millennium views, learning how each of us has rationalised the same single scene, line or character. There will never be a Millennium consensus nor one accepted definition or view. The incongruenty of it all is what energises boards such as this and makes the decisions within so vibrant. I found your post, all your posts, most fascinating and exquisitely worded and shall go back and treat myself to the seven episodes again, watching through your eyes, it's always exciting to think there is another interpretation to be had within.

Zues, I will search out for you some of the pre-publicity I have and forward it if you would like. I hadn't considered a mytharc until I became aware of this and was quite astounded to realise that this was their intention. It is only when you view it with this added gnosis that you can see the threads weave and stitch themselves nicely even if they are not always thematically consistent. I agree that some episodes break the mold, a taking of breath if you like, but there are certainly some fine attempts at resolution and some admirable attempts to depict the infestation of the Group by Legion and, ergo, add clarity to the significant changes the Group undergoes in it's transition between Seasons. The return of Legion, Cuffle and Lucy Butler show a desire and impetus to give a fine layer of closure to some of Millennium's most endearing threads and creations and the recurrent images of eyes, entwined palms and the use of the reincarnation motif did make me wonder of some larger picture, as in Darwin's Eye, was there to be seen if we stepped back: metaphorically of course. The Millennial Comet Newsletter included this piece, which is all I can lay my nicely intact and not growing, hands on at the moment which may be just enough till I can find anymore for you.

"...As FOX's intense advertisement told us last Friday, the next seven weeks will present seven in a row brand new episodes of "Millennium", leading us right to the season (series?) finale. The next seven episodes ("Saturn Dreaming of Mercury", "Bardo Thodol", "Darwin's Eye", "Seven and One", "Nostalgia", "Via Dolorosa", untitled) will present a myth-arc of grand proportions.

News concerning the focus of the myth-arc has seeped to the outside. Jordan

Black will develop astounding powers beyond those she, or her father, have ever had before. Frank Black will learn to control his visions like never before, discover the reasons he's been placed on our earth, and find out how he can prevent certain millennial disasters. Legion, tired of offering him deals, will make an attempt on Frank's sanity. Emma's family life will come crashing around her, forcing her to join the Millennium Group..."

I must confess that I when I first read this my jaw fell, I felt that I must have missed so much upon my first viewing that I did a seven episode marathon with a bucket of Hagen Daz. It is only when you give it the scruntiny it deserves can you see the foundations and layers of their intentions. Please let me know what your interpretation of the mytharc is: I am eager to hear it. MordernDayMoriaty's is very interesting and a real indicator of the power of Millennium as a televisual mirror.

Better go find some mytharcs....

eth

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Guest ZeusFaber

Moriarty,

Forgive me for misreading you at first.

The idea that Watts sent Frank the message in the computer virus is certainly an interesting one. Indeed, if true, I think this would add nicely to his complex characterisation in S3. It is my belief that at some point between the time we last see him in "The Time is Now" and his return in "Exegesis"he is reigned in by the Group. By the end of S2 he was beginning to loose his faith in the Group, upon realising that his family may be at risk to the Marburg Virus, but he was confronted by the Group in his final scene of the season (which was unresolved on screen). The next time we see him he is doing the bidding of Mabius.

Somehow, I believe Peter was in part threatened and in part re-indoctrinated, as we see his fear in the likes of "Collateral Damage", but also his faith that the Group's ideologies are still worth clinging to in "Skull and Bones", and here in "Bardo Thodol". By "Goodbye to All That", however, his confrontations with Frank lead him toward a new realisation, that the Group -- now infected by the evil of Mabius -- is no longer a force for good and no longer to be trusted, something which he may ultimately have paid for with his life.

Now, regarding "Seven and One", Frank does indeed state that Cuffle is dead, which is perfectly consistent as he says the same thing back in the pilot. So there is no real error with "Seven and One". The mistake comes in "Via Dolorosa", with Cuffle's execution scene. This is simply a continuity error, but one that I think we can get past due to the quality of the story, and certainly not one that can be held as indicative of CC having difficulty with the show since he was not involved with "Via Dolorosa" or "Goodbye to All That". Do we think that the inconsistency could have been solved though, whilst still retaining the iintegraty of the story, had the execution sequence been set say 5 years earlier?

In any case, while I agree that the final seven or so episodes do not seem to really represent a continuous multi-episode arc, I do think that they are thematically coherent and a fine way of advancing the overarching storylines.

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Guest ZeusFaber

Thanks for the pre-publicity materials, eth, very interesting. It's certainly a new and fascinating way to see the final seven episodes.

However, if this was the definitive intension, I would still say that "Darwin's Eye" and "Nostalgia" somehow break the pattern and rhythm of an intensive, multi-episode mytharc. "Darwin's Eye", whilst hinting towards Group conspiracies is in fact refreshing by the fact that the conspiracy actually turns out to be false for a change, an elaborate red-herring. Frank tells Emma, and us, to stop looking for conspiracies, for apocalyptic cover-ups, for the hand of the Group. The fact that the case was actually more straightforward, more everyday, is -- paradoxically -- what makes it more remarkable. Even so, it is not one of my favourite episodes, and does not really connect to the ongoing themes of the other episodes, aside from to introduce us to James Hollis.

"Nostalgia" is more of a throwback to the style of S1, and independent thriller/murder-mystery that Frank (and Emma) help to solve and reveal. I'm glad that Michael R. Perry was able to keep this type of episode alive and part of the series, yet again I wouldn't name it amongst my favourite episodes, and again I do not see it as all that connected to the mytharc.

Instead, I would rather see the entire second half of S3 as a thematically strong mytharc, interspersed with standalone stories along with way. "Borrowed Time" is a great episode in so many ways, and kicks off many threads regarding Frank and Jordan, their time on Earth, their gifts/curses, and of course a little angelology too. "Collateral Damage" give us more on the Group, their trespasses, and the complex character arc of Peter Watts, while "The Sound of Snow" does very well to paint over many of the uncomfortable patches left bare by "The Time is Now". "Antipas" then gives us the return of one of my favourite characters, Lucy Butler, advances the Legion arc, and links in later to "Saturn Dreaming of Mercury" and "Seven and One", taking us back around to the final installments.

My interepretations and theories to these ongoing threads, or this mytharc, rest largely on marrying the concepts of Legion and the Group. S3 builds on what S2 implied, that the Group are perhaps not a force for good. Now I was resistant to this at first, agreeing with LH that this was a mistake with reference to the Academy Group and the intesions of S1. However, I also believe that S3 made a good job of reconciling this, thanks largely to the recurring character of Mabius.

The way I see, at some point between S2 and S3, perhaps earlier, the Group gradually became infected by the evil of Legion, quite possibly because they had already opened themselves up to it thanks to their existing misdeeds. But by the time Mabius arrives, he represents a schism in the Group, perhaps even a usurping power as Evil starts to dominate. As a result, the Group is no longer a force trying to prevent the apocalypse, no longer even a force trying to control it, but instead a force actively embracing an apocalypse of our own creation, or rather THEIR own creation. The atomic weapons of "Matryoshka", the spreading of fear and insanity with "The Sound of Snow", to the genetic tampering of "Bardo Thodol" and the creation of their own killers in "Via Dolorosa"/"Goodbye to All That". One could even extend it to the necromancy of the X-Files crossover, so that all the dead of the Earth shall rise.

This, I believe, is something Peter Watts gradually comes to realise by "Goodbye to All That", that he has bought into the Group's propaganda too much, that there are things they are keeping from him, and that the Group has switched from containing the End to summoning it forth, thanks to the power of Mabius, or Legion.

Again though, just one possible theory, filling in the blanks here and there. Hope it hasn't been too long-winded.

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Guest ModernDayMoriarty

Actually, I believe Frank states that Cuffle is 'serving triple life sentences' in 'Pilot'. So he is still alive. However, in 'The Thin White Line' he refers to Richard Hance as being dead for all intents and purposes; that going to speak with him is like talking to the dead.

I agree wholeheartedly that the episodes should be treated as one giant arc but I passionately believe that the whole Season can be read like this. Emma's seduction to the Group begins in 'Skull and Bones' for example. I think the start of Season is very harshly judged indeed. I like mostly all of the episodes - yes, even 'Human Essence'!

As to S2. Well, it has long been my assertion that Lara Means was an 'evil' character, a member of Odessa. (The man guarding Lara attacks Frank in Owls/Roosters and is a member of Odessa it is heavily implied). So it clouds my interpretation of the end of the Season somewhat. I think Watts is of course dragged back into the Group but it's very difficult to identify links between the Seasons because of the obvious shift as M+W leave the show. It isn't clear exactly how much the writers want us to consider as having happened. Lara is never mentioned again for instance and neither is Watts' agreement to betray the Group and flee with Frank. Frank certainly doesn't seem surprised that Peter is with the Group and never mentions his near defection when Emma is musing over whether he is irredeemably evil.

Just as with the Poloroid Stalker shift from Season to Season, it is possible to make links and try and force a coherent reading but you would be unwise to press this point too far. The crew simply change too many facts and create different motivations to the point where you have to just adopt the viewpoint of the Season you are currently watching to make much sense of it.

With regard to 'Nostalgia'... well it is exactly that. Knowing they wouldn't ever have another chance, the crew give us one final look back at what Milennium used to be. I think it's just to break up all the heavy Mytharc and very obscure storylines that have dominated the end of the Season - a bit of a breather to let people get their second wind for the finale. Try watching 'Bardo Thodol', 'Seven and One', 'Via Dolorosa' and 'Goodbye to all That' back to back and you'll see what I mean. Your brain starting hurting with all the references and intimations, fiery performances and weighty issues. It's great but a break is welcome (or you could and watch Jose Chung's... :D)

So yes, a great episode and a great Season. S3 is rapidly becoming my favourite Season. Were it not for the opening 6 or so episodes of S1 and the excellent 'Lamentation' it probably would be no question. Thank You to Eth for his/her (sorry, don't know which!) comments which I surely do not deserve.

It's great to be talking Millennium again!

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Actually, I believe Frank states that Cuffle is 'serving triple life sentences' in 'Pilot'. So he is still alive. However, in 'The Thin White Line' he refers to Richard Hance as being dead for all intents and purposes; that going to speak with him is like talking to the dead.

I agree wholeheartedly that the episodes should be treated as one giant arc but I passionately believe that the whole Season can be read like this. Emma's seduction  to the Group begins in 'Skull and Bones' for example. I think the start of Season is very harshly judged indeed. I like mostly all of the episodes - yes, even 'Human Essence'!

As to S2. Well, it has long been my assertion that Lara Means was an 'evil' character, a member of Odessa. (The man guarding Lara attacks Frank in Owls/Roosters and is a member of Odessa it is heavily implied). So it clouds my interpretation of the end of the Season somewhat. I think Watts is of course dragged back into the Group but it's very difficult to identify links between the Seasons because of the obvious shift as M+W leave the show. It isn't clear exactly how much the writers want us to consider as having happened. Lara is never mentioned again for instance and neither is Watts' agreement to betray the Group and flee with Frank. Frank certainly doesn't seem surprised that Peter is with the Group and never mentions his near defection when Emma is musing over whether he is irredeemably evil.

Just as with the Poloroid Stalker shift from Season to Season, it is possible to make links and try and force a coherent reading but you would be unwise to press this point too far. The crew simply change too many facts and create different motivations to the point where you have to just adopt the viewpoint of the Season you are currently watching to make much sense of it.

With regard to 'Nostalgia'... well it is exactly that. Knowing they wouldn't ever have another chance, the crew give us one final look back at what Milennium used to be. I think it's just to break up all the heavy Mytharc and very obscure storylines that have dominated the end of the Season - a bit of a breather to let people get their second wind for the finale. Try watching 'Bardo Thodol', 'Seven and One', 'Via Dolorosa' and 'Goodbye to all That' back to back and you'll see what I mean. Your brain starting hurting with all the references and intimations, fiery performances and weighty issues. It's great but a break is welcome (or you could and watch Jose Chung's... :D)

So yes, a great episode and a great Season. S3 is rapidly becoming my favourite Season. Were it not for the opening 6 or so episodes of S1 and the excellent 'Lamentation' it probably would be no question. Thank You to Eth for his/her (sorry, don't know which!) comments which I surely do not deserve.

It's great to be talking Millennium again!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

MDM...you certainly do deserve kudos along the same line as ethsnafu. I have been sitting back, reading your posts and find you most enjoyable, salient, and succient. Unfortunately, here in the backwater country known as the USA, we are still sitting on our hands in regards to the 3rd season, so i cannot offer ANY cogent viewpoints etc until i have seen these particular episodes with mine own eyes...but rest assured...you are correct in the fact that Frank states that Cuffle is serving triple life terms in the pilot, so yes, he most definately is alive, obviously to be re-visited in season 3....i have a lot of catching up to do...

Not wanting to rehash subjects we have analyzed to death here, but the Laura enigma was a fascinating one, wasn't it? The ending of S2 just did not justify the means (so to speak, sorry for the pun) of her existence/relevance/meaning to the group. Left strapped to a bed, obviously in a state of delirium, was that the intended picture we were left to carry of someone who obviously had become extremely close to Frank, both in the work sense and the personal sense as well. The chemistry was certainly building throughout S2, climaxed by the scene in Midnight of the Century when Frank runs into Laura at Peter's Christmas party..the way she looked at Frank, the way Frank let his guard down in discussing how that particular time of the year was very trying for him (death of his mother, seperation from Catherine)...the nervous, giddy, schoolgirl reaction when she discovered she was holding his hands by the xmas tree, etc..then Frank telling her that she was the ONLY one who understood, not even Catherine...I just wished the question of either her surivival, death by the Marburg virus, or incarceration in a mental institution had been handeled better, that our last fleeting vision of someone who had become so very important in Frank's life (I would say even more than Catherine was) was not one of someone blankly staring out into space, strapped to a hospital bed...but then thats only one of the many questions left unanswered throughout the entire series....

Till the Last Change .... Be Done

The Fourth Horseman

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Guest ZeusFaber
Actually, I believe Frank states that Cuffle is 'serving triple life sentences' in 'Pilot'. So he is still alive.

Of course that's right, I'm not sure what I was thinking there -- my mistake.

I passionately believe that the whole Season can be read like this. Emma's seduction  to the Group begins in 'Skull and Bones' for example.

Yes, I agree, and "Skull and Bones" certainly is a strong episode. I also think that "The Innocents" and "Exegesis" are quite underrated, and have many elements to enjoy. I also agree that the first half of S3 is treated a little unfairly at times, although I also believe that best definitely kicks into a higher gear from "Borrowed Time" onwards.

Try watching 'Bardo Thodol', 'Seven and One', 'Via Dolorosa' and 'Goodbye to all That' back to back and you'll see what I mean. Your brain starting hurting with all the references and intimations, fiery performances and weighty issues.

As it happens, I just finished going through S3 in order in its entirety for the second time. They weren't back to back of course, but it's still an intense way to watch the arcs unfold.

S3 is rapidly becoming my favourite Season. Were it not for the opening 6 or so episodes of S1 and the excellent 'Lamentation' it probably would be no question.

Ah, but what of the complete second half of S1, from "Force Majeure" onwards? Such a good run IMO.

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"Not wanting to rehash subjects we have analyzed to death here, but the Laura enigma was a fascinating one, wasn't it? The ending of S2 just did not justify the means (so to speak, sorry for the pun) of her existence/relevance/meaning to the group. Left strapped to a bed, obviously in a state of delirium, was that the intended picture we were left to carry of someone who obviously had become extremely close to Frank, both in the work sense and the personal sense as well."

So wonderfully enlightened mighty 4th. Lara very clearly is an enigma and there is so much more to the character that can be appreciated with only a cursory glance. ModernDayMoriaty's original post with regards to Lara's duplicitous nature certainly made me reconsider her matrix and whilst my conclusion is drastically different with regards to her allegiances it is a testimony to those who envisaged her that allows us as viewers to reach such an alternative appraisal of her character from the one we are 'initially' expected to reach. I have, as you would expect, a list of oddities and contradictions that are all born from what we hear and see of Lara, these incongruities span far beyond the confines of Owls and Roosters and culminate in some real humdingers in Anamnesis, and it is quite vast and quite confusing and though it may be the mark of a madman to have compiled it anyway it certainly makes for some addled thinking. It was a great annoyance to me that she was afforded no closure in Season Three, in all Frank's altercations with Peter he never mentions her fate or uses it as verbal ammunition, but in retrospect this lack of closure may be the vital force that allowed her character to become the enigma it is: far more mental musings are abound with regards to her than many other characters, even Catherine. It will be interesting to see if Emma, when Season Three DVD's hit the US, will grow in TIWWA stature also as there is very little at all written about her: I was genuinely surprised at how little actually when I trawled through the archives of this board and the Google group. Though I hope there doesn't appear a Lara vs Emma thread thinly disguised as a Season Two vs Three/Carter vs Morgan and Wong thread....£5 says one appears.

I've also been devoting my time to making sense of Ed Cuffle primarily as 4th Horseman mentions him in a 'Polaroid Stalker' thread that was a fantastically inspiring collection of member's theories and I wanted to return to it and give credence to his accurate observation of the links but before I do I wanted to, hopefully, highlight my failure to grasp the Cuffle-confusion in Seven and One. With regards to Frank's mention of Cuffle in the pilot he says, "I was on a serial case in Minnesota. The killer's name was Ed Cuffle....He's serving triple life sentences." but it is clearly stated that, though there was a Polaroid aspect to Cuffle's case, the person responsible for the first wave of Polaroids sent to Frank is not him.

Frank: "A year later, I reach into my mailbox and I take out the mail and there's a letter addressed to me -- no return. Inside are Polaroids...."

Bletch: "You ever find who sent them?"

Frank: "No...."

The conversation between Frank and Agent Boxer is with regards to this person and not Ed Cuffle as Agent Boxer asks Frank if he has ever received Polaroids before to which Frank answers in the affirmative and states that both men (the other being the Polaroid Man) are now dead. In light of the above it is not inconsistent with continuity as Ed Cuffle is not referred to in this exchange. I also struggle to grasp, which is nothing new as I grasp very little, why the obituary in 'Midnight of the Century' contradicts what we are later shown in 'Seven and One'. The Millennial Abyss Episode Guide states "... This episode seemingly complicates our understanding of Frank Black's family line by specifically stating, for the first time, that he had more than one brother. This would seem to contradict an obituary clearly stating that Helen Black was survived by two sons, Frank and Thomas, seen on-screen in "Midnight of the Century." But surely the obituary may simply mean what it says: that she is survived by only two of her sons indicating that one, at least, is dead. Most obituaries list only survivors, including spouses, children (and sometimes, their spouses), grandchildren, siblings and other close relatives and friends - a listing of close relatives who preceded the descendant in death is fairly uncommon. Can someone help me out and enlighten me as to where it states that Helen Black only had two sons as people seem fairy certain that this is the case and I feel sure I have missed something: the obituary seems only to confirm that she had two living children at the time of her death.

On that note enough Bardo and more Polaroid Man and a sincere hope that a few of you will hop over to the Harsh Realm section as I have just completed this fantastic series and have many unanswered questions begging for the cognoscente but on a closing note Zues' 'review' of Season Three is excellent stuff - a worthy contender for such a role in the Knowledgeable Contributors Section methinks.

eth

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Guest ZeusFaber

I'd like to just add my thoughts on Emma Hollis here, since it seems to be called for.

I must say that I quite like her character, especially as S3 goes on. She established herself as a competant and inquisitive investigator in her own right, but her greatest strenghts come through as she becomes Frank's protoge in many ways. She looks up to him, respects him, and is instantly willing to delve into his ideas when others brush them off as nonsense. She can see what is going on in Frank's mind, that there is more than he is telling the others, and although she does not yet know what that is, she is far more willing to find it than others around her.

I particularly like the way that she is not made to fit a mould of a 'love-interest' or someone with 'sexual tension'. She is a student, and she is never forced into anything else. I think her and Frank have one of the most perfect working relationships between members of oposing sexes that never becomes an issue, it doesn't even register.

Most of all though, it is her descent through S3, her seduction toward the Millennium Group that is most appealing. She becomes a fallen hero, someone corrupted by temptation and the things which others would exploit about her. One of the most compelling elements is the fact that she falls with her eyes open. She attempts to call off her 'deal with the devil', but it is too late, and she can see that she has crossed a line, a point of no return. It is a true tragedy.

As some may know, I much prefer Emma to Lara, as I prefer their relationship and feel it is more appropriate, and doesn't do a disservice to Catherine at the same time. However, I do not for one minute want to force this upon anyone else, as everyone is quite entitled to see both Lara and Emma very differently to the way I see them. Just sharing my own, highly subjective, testament to Emma Hollis.

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Guest ZeusFaber
Can someone help me out and enlighten me as to where it states that Helen Black only had two sons as people seem fairy certain that this is the case and I feel sure I have missed something: the obituary seems only to confirm that she had two living children at the time of her death.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head there. As far as I'm aware, the idea that "Seven and One" contradicts earlier points is based only upon this obituary. As you wisely point out, the words "survived" allow us to presume that Frank's other brother or brothers died at some point prior to that. I think we can allow it to work itself out that way. After all, it's not a hugely important issue.

a sincere hope that a few of you will hop over to the Harsh Realm section as I have just completed this fantastic series and have many unanswered questions

Glad you've enjoyed it. I'll go and seek out the HR section now then...

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