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Guest ModernDayMoriarty

I guess for me, the character of Lara Means was never explained well enough. Her presence was often unnecessary and her angelic visions never really amounted to anything. In such a climate, I searched for deeper meaning from her and turned up far too many clues and intimations that she was an evil character. I have no doubt that she grew close to Frank and identified with him - that is partially why I think she gave him the Marburg cure at the end for instance. But right from 'Monster', there is just too much that doesn't sit right. I will summarise it below - don't feel obliged to say anything as it just keeps it all fresh in my head.

'There is a Group you might be interested in' she says but Frank cuts her off before she finishes. Would she have said Millennium? If so, why hasn't she identified herself to the P.D as being affiliated with the Group? Why does Peter Watts (who sent Frank on the assignment and would presumably see his report) still not know by 19:19 that Frank and Lara know about each other? Plus there is the nursery rhyme - that the wolf couldn't get into the house as it was built on solid foundations. As this is said, Frank is happy with his family but the camera pans to Lara. Is she the wolf? Has the wolf already entered her house?

'Goodbye Charlie' sees Lara very interested in Frank's involvement with the Group. 'You work for them?' she queries. 'Only because they present cases like these' he replies. So she now knows that his connection to the Group is weak. Consider that in 'Owls/Roosters' Frank says his reluctance to join the Group was monitored. By who? Frank is very careful and instantly spots people keeping tabs on him in 'The Hand of Saint Sebastian' and 'Owls/Roosters' for instance. He only voices his displeasure at MLM to 2 people really. Peter Watts and Lara Means. One we know is loyal to the Group, the other... well they found out somehow didn't they?

Owls/Roosters has too many intimations to list. Most pertinent is the need for a 'Judas' character in a story that is so obviously mirroring the story of Christ's final night in the Garden of Gethsemane. Lara has a definate edge to her voice as she bids the Old Man goodnight. I refuse to believe that she didn't know what was going to happen. Why didn't Gunsch kill her too? It makes no sense he would leave her behind unharmed (and she is almost certain to have been in the house as Frank wouldn't want them alone at such a dangerous time). When Peter speaks of Odessa in the basement. look at Lara. She is fidgety and unnerved but she doesn't look surprised at all. Also, when Clare Knight is arrested and led away who is she looking straight at when the cuffs go on? Frank? Look again - she's looking straight at Lara Means.

'Siren' is just too obvious. A story about a female monster pretending to be a friend to Frank. Lara even showed up first in an episode labelled 'Monster' (a title I firmly believe was to describe her and not Danielle barbikow). Lara makes vague intimations about Frank's relations with the group aboard the ship. How people saved would be so indebted they would be virtual slaves. How they'd give anything to wake up from that nightmare... This is exactly the situation Frank is in with the Group and Means knows it.

'The Time is Now'. Well, it's Judas again isn't it? Wracked with guilt over who she is and with her mind destroyed by the revelations from the Group, she acts like Judas and refuses her reward - in J's case it was silver, in her case it is vaccine.

I'll stop now because I've gone through it all before and people don't need to hear it again. Like I said, it does me good to lay out my beliefs periodically to prevent from getting too rusty! As to the second half of S1... well I am not the world's greatest fan of 'Force Majeure'. I agree with Chip J that it was a good idea with indifferent execution. I am also not as convinced as many about the greatness of 'The Thin White Line' and 'Powers, Principalities...' But most of the rest I really like. I am continually surprised at exactly how much I like 'Broken World'. I think, like the start of S3, it just comes at a bad time. People aren't expecting that kind of episode. I think incidentally that 'The Innocents' and 'Exegesis' are criminally underrated. It was a superb opening and doesn't deserve the critical mauling it gets on this site. Same goes for Emma Hollis. An excellent character and one I consider right up there with the best.

Thanks too to The 4th Horseman but it's best to stop now - people who receive too much praise tend to go quite strange after a while. Look at Chris Carter :D

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'There is a Group you might be interested in' she says but Frank cuts her off before she finishes. Would she have said Millennium? If so, why hasn't she identified herself to the P.D as being affiliated with the Group? Why does Peter Watts (who sent Frank on the assignment and would presumably see his report) still not know by 19:19 that Frank and Lara know about each other? Plus there is the nursery rhyme - that the wolf couldn't get into the house as it was built on solid foundations. As this is said, Frank is happy with his family but the camera pans to Lara. Is she the wolf? Has the wolf already entered her house?

MDM - your disertation/dissection of the Laura enigma is very well done. I tend to agree with most of your statements, however, and this is MY interpretation, is that during "Monster"..when Laura says

LARA: There's a group that I'm involved in that you may be interested


[Frank gets up and moves to sit next to her.]

FRANK: There are 799 days remaining.

[Lara looks stunned.]

LARA: Did you know about me?

FRANK: No. [shakes his head] Did you know about me?

LARA: No, no. You've been to the Old Man, that's why you feel what you

feel about the girl.

FRANK: I have no reason yet to doubt Millennium's beliefs.

LARA: But I'm suspicious about the way that they go about it. Are we

being prepared or used? Why would they send us here on opposite sides

without letting us know?

FRANK: It's a test.

LARA: To find the evil.

FRANK: And we've passed.

I dont see any other possibilities, in summary of the dialogue above that any other group could have been involved, what with Laura's reference to the Old Man, and Frank's direct mention of the MillenniuM Group..

The secrecy could have been due to the fact that the group wanted them both to pursue independent yet parallel paths in order to solve the crime together, quite possibly to establish dominancy in relationship to their gifts...I dont think their ability to "get along" was paramount to the group, i believe the Group was well aware of each of their gifts and this was the "arena" whereby one would establish theirs as superior..

In 19:19, the only time there is a mutual discussion of Laura is when both Frank and Peter are sitting in Matthew Prine's trailer and Frank asks that she be involved because "we need her friends in high places"...please jog my memory if i am incorrect, but i dont recall Peter being surprised that Frank and Laura were aware of each other's existence...

In all humility to those who consider Laura a central character, i have to say i side with MDM here...her presence was at times more of a distraction, and then there was the confrontation between Ben Fisher in Anamnesis where she was CLEARLY out of her league..what did Fisher say?:

"Since The Family and The Millennium Group split, this is our first time knocking heads with you people. And honestly, I am not that impressed. I expected someone more formidable, instead I get a canidate fumbling in the dark, so

obviously afraid... Not only of what she knows, but of what she doesn't know."

A pointed condemnation if you like of someone who has not yet learned to trust their gifts, as Frank had come to do....i feel this speaks, unfortunately, for the character that was Laura Means, a lot of questions, too few answers...

Till the Last Change...Be Done..

The Fourth Horseman

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MDM...you certainly do deserve kudos along the same line as ethsnafu. I have been sitting back, reading your posts and find you most enjoyable, salient, and succient. Unfortunately, here in the backwater country known as the USA, we are still sitting on our hands in regards to the 3rd season, so i cannot offer ANY cogent viewpoints etc until i have seen these particular episodes with mine own eyes...but rest assured...you are correct in the fact that Frank states that Cuffle is serving triple life terms in the pilot, so yes, he most definately is alive, obviously to be re-visited in season 3....i have a lot of catching up to do...

Not wanting to rehash subjects we have analyzed to death here, but the Laura enigma was a fascinating one, wasn't it? The ending of S2 just did not justify the means (so to speak, sorry for the pun) of her existence/relevance/meaning to the group. Left strapped to a bed, obviously in a state of delirium, was that the intended picture we were left to carry of someone who obviously had become extremely close to Frank, both in the work sense and the personal sense  as well. The chemistry was certainly building throughout S2, climaxed by the scene in Midnight of the Century when Frank runs into Laura at Peter's Christmas party..the way she looked at Frank, the way Frank let his guard down in discussing how that particular time of the year was very trying for him (death of his mother, seperation from Catherine)...the nervous, giddy, schoolgirl reaction when she discovered she was holding his hands by the xmas tree, etc..then Frank telling her that she was the ONLY one who understood, not even Catherine...I just wished the question of either her surivival, death by the Marburg virus, or incarceration in a mental institution had been handeled better, that our last fleeting vision of someone who had become so very important in Frank's life (I would say even more than Catherine  was) was not one of someone blankly staring out into space, strapped to a hospital bed...but then thats only one of the many questions left unanswered throughout the entire series....

Till the Last Change .... Be Done

The Fourth Horseman


ok now i get it, thanks horseman, couldnt figure out what episode this thread was about, i was looking on the back of my season 1 and 2 boxes thinking i was nuts, well nuttier than usual anyway, i vaguely remember that episode from the original airing but couldnt place what season...come on september, weve got a lot of catching up to do...Gunslinger

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Guest ModernDayMoriarty

In 19:19, Frank says something like 'We should get Lara Means involved'. Peter looks at him and Frank explains that they know about each other. He would have no reason to say this if Peter already knew. Surely the Group were aware of at least the possibility of them meeting up (and it still doesn't explain Lara's inaction at notifying the police who she was in Monster).

As regards 'Monster'... she is cut off and could be about to say Odessa. I have no doubt she is involved with the Group but why wouldn't Odessa want to infilitrate the them? I recall a similar incident in S3's 'Nostalgia'. The young sherrif friend of Emma's asks her if she likes what she does. She replies 'Well, I have a kind of partner'. He responds: 'What, this guy Frank?' She doesn't say Frank's name, she merely states that 'he' has shown her so much. She has recently been complaining that Frank -doesn't- show her enough. So I think she is referring to Peter Watts who by this time has helped her on several occasions. I don't think it's such a stretch to say this could be happening in 'Monster' too.

I know that there is every possbility that Lara is just what she appears to be. But I refuse to believe that M+W could possibly have included such a character prominently where there was so little to her? It would be the first time they did such a thing if that is the case.

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My favourite Millennial subject bar none.

Before the ramble begins, and let's face it it is my signature to do so, I do believe that Lara is referring to the Millennium Group in her conversation with Frank in 'Monster'. This is not to say that this is the 'right' interpretation and not to say that there isn't another that paints her in an altogether different light but what I do disagree with is Ben Fisher's condemnation of her in Anamnesis which, I believe, was born from arrogance rather than a uncannily accurate insight. If you accept his appraisal of her character per se then it is seems to me that he grossly underestimates her "....Whatever I did, Catherine, no matter how I manipulated certain events, Fisher was going to die in this classroom today..." - evident to me who is having the last laugh.

I am a staunch believer, card carrying member and all, of the Lara/Judas Concept and would like, if I may, to add to what I consider to be the overwhelming evidence as elaborated upon by ModernDayMoriaty. My greatest irk with Lara-on-face-of-it is the assumption that she was, in someway, bumbling and lacking in comparison to Frank and though the character was greatly troubled by her gift there is plenty of evidence to suggest that she was more Millennium Group savvy than Frank and certainly more knowledgeable than what we would expect from a pre-initiation candidate. It is not stated how long Lara has been a group member though I tend to think that shares a similar time-frame to Frank but it is clear from her opening episode that she already doubts the motives of the group and it is noteworthy that she expresses these concerns with a fellow candidate before she even sure of his intention: the culmination of her journey in Anamnesis shows her defying the Group by handing case files over to Catherine and refusing to dance to Peter's tune all of which shows her to have more nounce than the easily led, bumbling candidate it is easy to conclude she was. From the onset she has a peculiar insight into Millennial mysticism offering the curious statement that The Old Man seemingly has the effect of augmenting the abilities of sensitive members. In Owls and Roosters she offers an indepth explanation of Millennium Group history and philosophy, at the behest of the Old Man, to a bemused Frank and in Owls she corrects Peter's misapprehensions with regards to Owls possible motivation for seeking the crucifixion cross. It would seem, considering Peter's lack of interest in her, that she operates without a patron and unlike both Frank and Peter she is clearly aware of the Marburg Vaccination programme without having to resort to decidedly covert methods to discern it. It seems, oddly, that she has access to Peter Watt's files even when excommunicated and has a direct line of communication to the Group Elder (more on that later) who reprimands Peter based on her assumptions and, more importantly, is the first member sought out by The Old Man when he finally becomes an active participant in the Owls/Rooster civil war. Whilst none of this confirms that she was a 'Judas' it does indicate that Lara is afforded a status within the group not consistent with the average candidate and had it not been explicitly stated in Owls and Roosters I never would have considered her as a candidate at all: she undergoes none of the mentoring we see Frank experiencing throughout the whole of Season Two.

Anamnesis seems, to my mind, to confirm my belief that she is most definitely allied, either currently or historically, to some group other than Millennium but the problem is that the links to this occur so far apart in the episode that I missed them until the umpteenth viewing...LARA "Through the years we've investigated many well-documented apparitions: Lourdes, Marpingen, Fatima..." and later CATHERINE "You've seen this before -- working with The Millennium Group?" LARA "No. I'VE seen. It's why The Group wants me." Thus possible allusion to a former affiliation may explain her comprehensive knowledge of Gnosticism as she was schooled in this arcane religion prior to her group involvement and could explain why she rolls off Gnostic passages with ease whilst Peter Watts has a tentative, unsound knowledge of 'orthodox' Christian texts: there are examples of him incorrectly stating chapters, verses and their content as well as confusing translations and meanings. Even if you discount all this and still believe she was only a sub-standard candidate then it could be the right time to move on to some of the more sinister inferences with regards to her nature.

The most curious thing comes in her appraisal of her visionary experience giving stark, contrasting versions of it's effects upon her to Frank. Not only does she appear to have a jaded concept of the truth but she seems also to be unyielding with regards to her understanding of the nature of her gift: stating to Frank that she could not join Owls as she has a unshakeable belief in the theological origin of her experiences only hours after seeking refuge in the secular annals of psychology as a method to understand them. It could be concluded that she is simply 'confused' and not deliberately misleading Frank but things become more sinister in 'Goodbye Charlie' when she breaks from the interrogation of a serial killer and fair begs him to help her understand, and develop, her abilities. If that isn't inidcation that she is willing to make a deal with the devil in exchange for answers then I don't know what it and it is this desperation, I believe, that lead her to become an accomplice in the death of the Old Man which results not only in a closer relationship with Peter but a fastrack to initiation only a few episodes after the group as discounted her as not ready. Ahh the initiation! Whatever you do conclude about this ritual it is fair to say that it is extremely clandestine, Peter does not appear to remember his with any fondness, quite the opposite, and Frank is unable to trace Lara prior to hers, so much so that he is forced to use an outside agency to locate her. Consider also that the Group places Peter under surveillance due to his behaviour prior to Lara's initiation: so concerned are they that they attempt to apprehend the two of them 'all guns blazing'.

If she and Peter were involved in the Old Man's murder, yup they're in it together in my thinking, then it could explain their sudden closeness despite prior indications of a forsty relationship (see Midnight of the Century). Something, and I use 'something' simply because the given explanation makes no sense, causes Watts to dismiss Lara from the Millennium Group, he offers her no explanation and she seems content not to be given one but simply returns home to continue her investigations into, yup...you guessed it, Peter Watts. This is interesting in itself as Lara has obtained duplicate copies of the imaging results Peter requested, results that had only just landed on Peter's desk moments before her excommunication. And considering her files are without the image Peter removed it is fair to conclude she has received his files and not simply duplicates. This is possibly the biggest hint that Lara has 'friends in high places' with a bigger fish appearing only moments later. No sooner has Lara concluded what the Owls and Roosters themselves appear to suspect, namely that Peter is involved in something decidedly Judas-like, than Peter is summoned before the group Elder to explain his concealment of the third image, the very image that Lara was unable to find amongst the files. Now either Ms. Means is making strategic alliances here, feeding information to the group Elder who is, very shortly, to hold the 'Old Man's Compass' or it is a simple coincidence that someone is passing information to her and her to them.

Moments later when the Old Man is to finally descend from his shack and in the midst of a rapidly degenerating Millennium Group the member he approaches first, amongst all the unidentifiable quaffle of members he could have chosen, is Lara, excommunicated, uninitiated Lara under who's care he is dispatched whilst she, we are expected to believe, remains blissfully unaware despite her precognitive psychic 'alarm bell'. From this point on there is a rapid change in Peter and Lara's relationship, if Lara really did enjoy a possible undiscussed mentor/teacher relationship with the man who took the mantle of 'Old Man' then this seemingly changes the way Peter views her. Things move incredibly quickly for her from this point on, there seems to be no need to argue her readiness for candidacy anymore: suddenly she is holding all the cards. In Anamnesis, Watts dispatches Lara to investigate the enigma of Claire McKenna, they have moved from requiring Frank's mediatory function (seen in 19:19) to working and communicating directly for the first time, not only this but Peter remains silent in the face of Lara's threats of rank insubordination. The conversation that takes place in the corridor is incredibly telling, more so if you watch Lara's malign grin when she dismisses Catherine as not being a problem, during the batting back and forth Peter prompts Lara to "...remember why you're here," which seems innocuous until you consider that Lara already knows that Claire McKenna is channeling the Magdalene, that Ben Fisher is 'The Family', she knows the ins and outs of the Merovingian Dynasty, Grail Legend, Black Virgins, Gnosticism and so on and so forth so it begs the question what is the group there to find? Not 'answers' as it seemingly has them all already. Things get more enigmatic when you give consideration to the following exchange:

LARA It's Lara. And now that I'm sure about who he is, I can't just watch this happen.

PETER We've watched worse things happen with less reason. You have identified him, haven't you?

LARA Yeah. I spoke to him.

PETER And the girl?

Lara doesn't respond.

PETER After all we've been through, Lara, you're just going to have to trust we're doing the right thing

What have they watched occur with less reason? What have they been through together? What is she unprepared to watch happen? I can only deduce that Peter has dispatched Lara with the mandate to kill Ben Fisher leaving Clare Mckenna without his guidance and ripe for Group harvesting. I can only conclude also that this conversation is in reference to their shared involvement in a plot to dispose of the 'Old Man' to place a new, more pro-active Elder at the helm, the very man who both Lara and Peter appear to share both onscreen and offscreen links with. If a plot to kill Ben Fisher seems implausible then the culmination of the conversation appears to confirm it:

PETER After all we've been through, Lara, you're just going to have to trust we're doing the right thing.

LARA I can't, Peter. It would be murder.

Murder indeed! Not manslaughter brought about by a flagrant lack of intervention but murder, the "illegal killing with malice aforethought," of another being, with purpose, direction and intention". Lara admits as much to Catherine when she says " Whatever I did, Catherine, no matter how I manipulated certain events, Fisher was going to die in this classroom today," because if events had not transpired in the manner they did she was seemingly involved in a plot that would have killed him anyway.

Beyond the death of the 'Old Man' and the events of 'Anamnesis' it is now Lara and Peter all the way, he hides her from both the Group and from Frank, both of whom tail him in an attempt to prevent her initiation, and finally gives her what she most craves, gnosis. Interestingly after she has undergone the blood ritual she has in her possession the 'Marburg Vaccine' which implies that she has information and choice in this matter where Frank and even Peter had none. The girl's certainly come a long way in a short time. Whether you conclude, as I do, that a the group Elder was rolling the dice behind the scenes and that Lara and Peter were witting/unwitting accomplices in an insurrection plot there is this fascinating concept that Lara was, in fact, Odessa. I wondered if Odessa, the mystical Teutonic order of Nazis united beneath a banner of the shed blood of sixteen men, could have inspired the blood-shedding-lake ritual we watch Peter Watts barely able to recall comfortably. Did Odessa initiate Peter in the lake that runs beside their centre of operations? Guess that's another thread entirely.

But, to return to Peter and Lara, I love the fact that they could be drawn together through experience rather than a mutual affinity and it is fair to say, considering he excommunicates on the shakiest of ground that defies logic, that he has no great love of her but it could be this act of excommunication that brings the two of them together via the kingpin in the Old Man murder plot: the Group Elder who shortly after assumes his mantle.

To my mind the greatest confirmation, the big flashing arrow, that points to her involvement in the Old Man's murder comes in his dying vision of her angel and the subsequent revelation that her angel deserts her immediately after but whatever you conclude, and listening the ramblings of a madman may put you off concluding anything at all, then I believe it fair to sat that Lara was by no means the one-dimensional-poor-man's-Frank we conclude upon initial viewing.

Forgive my rant, I know not what I do.


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Guest ModernDayMoriarty

Not at all; I agree with large portions of what you say and had formulated the following hypotheses:

As to Peter and Lara conspiring against the Old Man... I had long considered it and I think there is evidence to support it. By noticeably throwing his support behind Lara and then dismissing her, the appearance would be that Watts wanted nothing more to do with her and certainly wouldn't be plotting with her about anything - the perfect cover to do what needed to be done. Watts himself confidently states that the investigation will ultimately heal and reunite the Group. So it is perfectly possible that he is in on it. He passes the staff to the new Old Man and becomes the next Elder it seems. The Old Man admits that he feels he has failed and it is possible that Peter feels that way too.

Close scrunity of the hand-writing in this episode is something I have been meaning to do. We are given examples of:

Peter Watts.

The Old Man.

Gordon Johnston.

Whose handwriting is on the note at the end to the new Old Man? Whoever it was knew that real cross was safe and allowed the events to unfold knowing this. If it is Peter Watts' writing then it pretty much confirms that he knew the Old Man would die and the Elder would take his place. The Elder for his part seems very unsurprised that the cross is safe. I also agree incidentally with the interpretation of Peter saying 'we've stood and let worse things happen with less reason'. Also reference 'The Fourth Horseman' where images of The Old Man recruiting Peter are shown. Interspersed with this are scenes are Peter looking extremely guilty and depressed and drinking away his sorrows. This is not exactly a common picture of Peter to say the least. What he has done to the Old Man is catching up with him and it breaks Lara (although I think in her case it is a combination of things).

I think Lara was complicit with Peter but I firmly believe she had an agenda past him as well. In such an interpretation, I see the men from O/R and TTIN as 'pure' MLM Group members under the direct purview of the New Old Man. It is highly unlikely Peter knew anything of a plot to kill Frank and the Elder diverts him from going to Frank and asking too many questions about that incident. Indeed, he directs the conversation to what Peter has been up to behind his back. 'We cannot lie to one another' he states. Lie to other group members or is he talking one on one? Him and Peter shouldn't lie to one another? Therefore, if they are accoplices, then that would help explain the events of TTIN. Peter falls out of favour with the Elder/Old Man possibily out of guilt over what he has done. Peter's security clearance is revoked when he initiates Lara against the Old Man's wishes and the latter sends his O/R flunky out to restore order. Lara is now a lost cause so she is given a gun and they expect her to kill herself in her state. They may have been planning to kill her but Watts could have interrupted that.

Again, this is all just speculation and it would be VERY difficult to try and carry it over to S3 because the writers so effectively washed their hands of the whole Old Man business and forgot Lara Means ever existed. Still, it's nice to meet someone who doesn't assume I'm crazy for thinking Lara Means must have had more to her than the surface showed. M+W are simply not that kind of writing team - there is always something more if you look hard enough.

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Guest Wepwawet
After watching this episode on DVD for the second time, I am still left somewhat confused and unable to piece the plot together, unlike other episodes.  The monk tells us: "understand, and you are liberated".  I'm wondering if anyone can help liberate me. 


Oh good, so it wasn't just me!!

I watched this one for the first time last night, and was rather confused by the end - exclaiming a loud 'Huhh??' as opposed to my usual 'Wow!' or 'Cool...'

I must admit I did wonder about the possible alchemical references, but thought that was just me going off on tangents. Having read this thread for purposes of elucidation, I'm inclined to believe now that I may not have been that far wrong.

I always interpreted the bowl as an equivalent to the briefcase in the movie 'Ronin'...a plot device whose real purpose is immaterial. And I did think it funny that the TIbetan burial custom was very similar to the 'Roosters' episode...making me wonder if the Group's own background had some heavier links to Tibetan culture/Buddhist thought than hitherto revealed.

The title of this one threw me as well. Buddhist mythos is one area I haven't yet studied, so it meant nothing to me. Having read this thread (or as much as I dare without spoiling the end of season 3 for myself), and done a little research on the 'Book of the Dead', I know I will return to this episode in future and see it in a new light.

Thanks, folks ;o)

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Guest A Stranger

This is an interesting discussion going on and I felt like throughing in my thoughts. First, on the issue of Lara, I really have a hard time believing that she was involved with anything other than what she admits to. ModernDayMinority makes many interesting points but I see many of them as merely plot devices for a character that wasn't really thought out that well. Lara often seemd to know more about the Group or other mysterious elements as a means of pushing the plot along. I guess it's possible but I think the final note we are left with is that she didnt' really know that much and that when she really found out she couldn't handle it. She couldn't handle it becuase she was already mentally unstable. This instability accounts for her jumping from new ideas (as well as allowing for the show do address the new ideas) from week to week.

On Bardo Thodol: This is an episode I found very poorly concieved after first airing but time seems to be winning me over a bit. The main theme here is "understand and you are liberated" but it seems impossible to understand what is really going on in the episode. I understand that the revelation is that Frank is to let go of need to understand what the Group is doing. Maybe it's the point of the episode to frustrate me but what the Group is doing seems extemely important and dangerous, as revealed in "Goodbye to All That." I'm assuming that the genetic alchemy is the same that Watts refers to in the finale. I guess I don't think they had shown Frank consumed with the Group to a dangerous point previous to this episode. Every time he thought it was them, it really was them! And they were killing people! Should he have just forgiven Peter the way he nearly does at the end of Bardo Thodol?

I like this episode but like many of season three I still find myself with the feeling that in thier attempt to bring back the subtly lost in season two, the show became too vaque. Who sent him the message? Probably Peter...Why? Why does the disfigured man recongnize and find solace in Frank? Becuase he Lucy Butler's oppisite, the manifestaion of Good as hinted at in "Antipas?" I don't know. I don't know if that is just something I read into, something that was meant to be there or not. Why blue-eyed, blonde-haird women? What were those eyes in "Saturn...?" Was Mabius Legion or just the Group's hitman, he seems human up until "Seven and One" and it's very likely the same actor was used because Carter liked him in "Gehenna" there is very little continuity between what Carter writes and what everyone else writes. This method of operating worked exceptially well in "Borrowed Time" with Samual and over all I like season three more than two, if it came down to but also found it frustrating at times. It's hard to tell when I've read too much into it and the writing just became sloppy.

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Hi Stranger (How MUCH does that sound like a cheap chat up line?)

A fascinating post and I have restrained myself from arguing in favour of Lara's duplicity, again, as it is only a theory which all are entitled to oppose but I wanted to address some of your observations on Miss Means - someone recently noted that he knew he was assured a response from me if he took upon himself the daunting task of Lara Means so please do not take my differences of opinion personally as they are no more valid or cogent than your own.

I absolutely agree with you that Lara, like all characters, is guilty of scenes of infodump: sacrificing naturalistic dialogue, moving the plot forward by spouting ceaseless lines of back-story and technicalities but the question remains why such information is delivered to us in more than one example by a character who should not have possessed that level of insight? Of course the safest conclusion is that Morgan and Wong simply wrote badly forgetting that one of their own creations was supposed to be an un-initiated novice and in a flagrant oversight assigned her the task of supplying information to Frank that was quite incongruous with the nature of her character. There is an 'or', and it is big or, they were drawing our attention by way of repetition to this very fact for a reason. MordernDayMoriaty notes that "...I refuse to believe that M+W could possibly have included such a character prominently where there was so little to her? It would be the first time they did such a thing if that is the case..." and I agree with this statement. It would also be a first for M + W to write a character who is shown exhibiting something oddly uncharacteristic purely to move a story onward - let's face it if was a simple case broadening our knowledge of a story then why opt to have Lara relate the whole of the Owl/Rooster Faction back-story to Frank when the Old Man is sat beside her and would have been the most obvious and appropriate character to provide for this need: something even the most novice of writers would have concluded and presumably executed. I don't agree that we can conclude that Lara was unable to handle the final revelations given to her as she was mentally unstable and it always seemed odd to me that Lara's psychological health, I admit she is certainly troubled and more probably suffering from a degree of depression, is noted whereas Frank's is rarely discussed. It is certainly more common to see Lara described as insane than it is Frank who was to require psychiatric intervention three times in the course of his recent lifetime. It is fair to note that there certainly were some 'problems' I do not agree that this has any bearing on her eventual fate. It is noted by Peter that what occurs to her is not uncommon - being nothing more than a post initiatory volatility and may, as Peter notes, happen to Frank if he too undergoes the ritual. Of course there is the whole nature of her initiation of which it is noted by the Group higher-ups that neither she nor Frank is ready to receive and considering that Peter hastily initiates her against their advice it can be concluded that Lara's violent reaction is an example of this volatility heightened by her lack of readiness and preparation though it does beg the question of what the initiation actually does as it would seem that it has an effect beyond what one would expect from a simple symbolic pledge of allegiance.

As for the eyes in Saturn...I would give gold nuggets to anyone who can offer a satisfactory explanation for them as I can see absolutely no reason for them to be there and no link to any element of the plot. I was even more perturbed when I realised that they had been chosen as the centrepiece for the Season Three DVD Boxset in some formats which, to my mind, is the equivalent of sticking a picture of the polish sausage Dogget gave to Reyes on the cover of a Season Nine X-Files Boxset. There appears, tellingly, to be an alarming number of eyes in Season Three on the whole:- those in Saturn, the alarming lapis-lazuli irises of the remote viewers in the opening duo of episodes, the eye symbol upon the wall of 512's viewing room, the self same eye symbol on the wall in Skull and Bones and drawn by Ed on the letter he sends to Frank, the eye that leads Emma to see the bigger picture in 'Darwin's Eye' and all the eye musings within the episode itself, the eye of Melissa Holiss that James Hollis folds into a Palm Tree and so on and so forth. Guess it may mean something but I fail to understand any of it and thought the Saturn eyes were probably just there to look nice - that's as profound as it gets for me I'm afraid.

Hope you will write more on Lara and other topics as it was an engrossing read..


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Guest A Stranger
[bAs for the eyes in Saturn...I would give gold nuggets to anyone who can offer a satisfactory explanation for them as I can see absolutely no reason for them to be there and no link to any element of the plot.


I know that the Sanderson father says that they were bought in Phoenix, were they just moved from. That is the same local the Simon murder took place...But I still don't know what that means. :angry:

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