Seven And One - Why So Many Mistakes?

[Guest ZeusFaber]

MOTC is one of my favorite episodes and i dont remember a gravesite scene mentioning relatives...

Are you talking about his father's gravesite? That was not until the final episode of Season 2 when Frank gets the call at 6:02..

That could be it. Like I said, I can't really recall the exact scene, but I do remember discussing this in another thread with ethsnatu where this was cited in defence of the brother(s) debate.

1. Up until this episode (correct me if i am wrong) it had only been Lucy who had the ability to shape shift, to morph into any character she choose. So is this character Mabius, who morphs from the figure of Agent Boxer another demon from a similar dominion as Lucy? 

I think this one all comes down to a question of interpretation. It's one of those plural issues that has no definite answer.

The way I see it, it is all a grander metaphor for Evil. Evil has many faces, whether it be Lucy Butler we're dealing with or any other form of Evil. We often call this Legion in the MM universe, which makes perfect sense, from the Judge to Al Pepper in "Powers, Principalities, Thones, and Dominions". Evil is evil, they are all one and the same, in a metaphorical sense. Thus, it is not just Lucy Butler who has a special ability, rather that all of evil can be seen through this metaphor, which I think is the point that "Seven and One" was trying to convey, not that either Boxer or Mabius were supernatural beings, but that they were both the metaphorical faces of Evil, which itself knows no bounds.

I would again stress that this is just the way I see it, and I am just sharing my interpretation. Thank goodness MM is such a wonderfully pluralistic work of art. Thank heavens for multiplicity.

[4th Horseman]

That could be it.  Like I said, I can't really recall the exact scene, but I doing remember discussing this in another thread with ethsnatu where this was cited in defence of the brother(s) debate.

I think this one all comes down to a question of interpretation.  It's one of those plural issues that has no definite answer.

The way I see it, it is all a grander metaphor for Evil.  Evil has many faces, whether it be Lucy Butler we're dealing with or any other form of Evil.  We often call this Legion in the MM universe, which makes perfect sense, from the Judge to Al Pepper in "Powers, Principalities, Thones, and Dominions".  Evil is evil, they are all one and the same, in a metaphorical sense.  Thus, it is not just Lucy Butler who has a special ability, rather that all of evil can be seen through this metaphor, which I think is the point that "Seven and One" was trying to convey, not that either Boxer or Mabius were supernatural beings, but that they were both the metaphorical faces of Evil, which itself knows no bounds.

I would again stress that this is just the way I see it, and I am just sharing my interpretation.  Thank goodness MM is such a wonderfully pluralistic work of art.  Thank heavens for multiplicity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huh? just kidding thanks...looking at it this way, it begins to make more sense. And yes, i remember your discussion with ethsnafu about the brothers issue. I am a person who has to watch and re-watch an episode before it begins to sink in...thats what happens when you have more grey hairs than any other color...

thanks again,

The Fourth Horseman

[Guest ZeusFaber]

Not at all. There are so many different ways to interpret an episode that there is no way to come up with an ultimate solution.

If the show wasn't so polysemous, then there wouldn't be any need for these message-boards.

[Guest A Stranger]

1. Frank stating that Ed Cuffle is dead in "Seven and One" is NOT a continuity error.  It was the establishment of a point.  The continuity error comes later with "Via Dolorosa", NOT "Seven and One".

2. Frank stating that the attacker looked like Ed Cuffle is also not a continuity error.  As we have seen, Evil is able to take on many forms and confuse the mind (whether you choose to see this literally or metaphorically is unimportant).  Thus, Evil=Mabius=Agent Boxer=Cuffle=Evil.

3. Frank having more than one brother is not  continuity error.  The only prior establishment of facts, as far as I'm aware, is the gravestone in "Midnight of the Century", stating something like "is survived by two sons" (someone else might be able to fill in the blanks here, it's a long time since I've seen that episode).  Consequently, it could simply be that Frank's other borther was not alive at that point, and had died some time previously.

Sorry to go against the grain, but I find it somewhat disheartening to see such a strong episode as "Seven and One" dismissed as contradcitory and riddled with maddening errors when in fact they are not really present.

Just my point of view.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Okay, I can buy that. It's a good point. I thnk the reason "Seven" is singled out as the flawed episode it because "Via/Goodbye" follows the season better and is written by it's primary writers. It's likley that they wrote it/planned it before "Seven." Also in the Pilot it is state that Cuffle is serving tripple life sentences, not on death row.

2. So then why didn't Frank recognize Mabius as Cuffle? He's seen him many times.

3. It's just stretching it. Why was never seen or mentioned, alive or dead?

[Guest OfRedEarth]

The reference in "Midnight of the Century" is an obituary that states that Linda Black is survived by her two sons, Frank and Thomas. The way I see it, it's perfectly possible that Henry Black remarried, and that the woman he married had two kids that were older than Frank. ("Seven and One" did give me the impression that Frank's two brothers were older.) Anyway, if Henry did remarry, it would make sense why the marriage didn't last, considering his obsession with his deceased wife and everything.

I wasn't trying to rip on "Seven and One" or anything--I think it's a great episode--it's just sort of strange the way it doesn't quite fit with the episodes around it. But maybe that's good, because it gives us all something to talk about it.

Oh, and here's something strange, too: Frank says in the "Pilot" that Cuffle is serving triple life sentences in Minnesota. But Cuffle is executed in Florida, because Minnesota doesn't have a death penalty. This Cuffle guy is confusing. No wonder Frank went crazy!

Edited September 15, 2005 by OfRedEarth

[Guest ZeusFaber]

1. Okay, I can buy that. It's a good point. I thnk the reason "Seven" is singled out as the flawed episode it because "Via/Goodbye" follows the season better and is written by it's primary writers. It's likley that they wrote it/planned it before "Seven." Also in the Pilot it is state that Cuffle is serving tripple life sentences, not on death row.

I'm not certain that "Via Dolorosa" would have been written before "Seven and One". Also, the fact that Cuffle wasn't on death row doesn't mean he couldn't have just died in prison. Frank never said he was executed in "Seven and One". If anything, this supports the idea that the flaws lie with "Via Dolorosa" -- like you say, he wasn't on death row, so why was he executed in "Via Dolorosa"?

2. So then why didn't Frank recognize Mabius as Cuffle? He's seen him many times.

I'd have to watch the episode again, but I thought Frank did identify his attacker as Cuffle. Or are you questioning why he saw Cuffle when it wasn't him? If that latter is the case, then the answer goes back to what I said before about Evil having many different faces, including Boxer, Cuffle, AND Mabius.

3. It's just stretching it. Why was never seen or mentioned, alive or dead?

Why should he have been? Why was Frank's mother and father not mentioned before "Midnight of the Century"? Why wasn't Frank's brother mentioned before "Sacrament"? Why weren't Catherine's parents and sister mentioned before "Paper Dove"? Why wasn't Emma's father mentioned before "Darwin's Eye"?

Everyone has to make their debut in one episode or another. Just because we haven't seen someone before doesn't mean that they don't exist.

[Guest OfRedEarth]

"Seven and One" and "Via Dolorosa" would have been in development around the same time, since they both appear at the end of the season.

To confuse things more, if you look at Frank's Millennium Group file which is glimpsed in "Goodbye To All That", it specifically states he has one brother named Thomas, that's it.

[Guest A Stranger]

I'm not certain that "Via Dolorosa" would have been written before "Seven and One".  Also, the fact that Cuffle wasn't on death row doesn't mean he couldn't have just died in prison.  Frank never said he was executed in "Seven and One".  If anything, this supports the idea that the flaws lie with "Via Dolorosa" -- like you say, he wasn't on death row, so why was he executed in "Via Dolorosa"?

I'd have to watch the episode again, but I thought Frank did identify his attacker as Cuffle.  Or are you questioning why he saw Cuffle when it wasn't him?  If that latter is the case, then the answer goes back to what I said before about Evil having many different faces, including Boxer, Cuffle, AND Mabius.

Why should he have been?  Why was Frank's mother and father not mentioned before "Midnight of the Century"?  Why wasn't Frank's brother mentioned before "Sacrament"?  Why weren't Catherine's parents and sister mentioned before "Paper Dove"?  Why wasn't Emma's father mentioned before "Darwin's Eye"?

Everyone has to make their debut in one episode or another.  Just because we haven't seen someone before doesn't mean that they don't exist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I mean is that that if Frank sees Mabius and think's it Cuffle, then why didn't he notice earlier like in "Skull and Bones" and "Bardo Thodo?" The actor was used way too many times in the season, not to mention "Gehenna" to just make him another character, not to mention he is credited as Mabius for "Seven."

And it just seems that enough stories have been done surrounding Frank's family to not be able to keep making up members. It seemed like by "MOTC" it had been officially mapped out. And I just assumed, for obvious reasons Frank had parents before they were mentioned.

You're right about the flaws in "Via" but I can forgive them because it is in service to a good story. I just don't unnderstand why they would make up a brother or two that doesn't even affect the plot in anyway. Maybe if it were one of his bros. that died but it's not even that it's just a friend.

[Guest Max Fenig]

2. Frank stating that the attacker looked like Ed Cuffle is also not a continuity error.  As we have seen, Evil is able to take on many forms and confuse the mind (whether you choose to see this literally or metaphorically is unimportant).  Thus, Evil=Mabius=Agent Boxer=Cuffle=Evil.

Between all the theories we could have about this episode, I think this is, 100%, without a doubt, what the aim of this episode was, concerning the involvement of Agent Boxer/Ed Cuffle/Mabius. Agent Boxer didn't REALLY shapeshift - it was showing us that he was also a manifestation of evil in Frank's world.

This is obviously very hard to explain, but Mabius in "Bardo Thodol" and "Skull & Bones" isn't Mabius isn't "Seven and One" - Mabius ISN'T Mabius in "Seven and One". That probably doesn't make any sense, but I think some people will be able to get at what I'm saying.

Edited September 15, 2005 by Max Fenig

[Guest OfRedEarth]

I like the point you're making, Max. But, on the other hand, if Mabius really DID shapeshift, couldn't that be proving to us that the Millennium Group became corrupted by the very forces they were fighting?

I like all these different ideas.