Jump to content

The History Of Lucy Butler

Rate this topic


Guest lilblackgirl

Recommended Posts

may well have been the best acting vignettes in the entire series.

perhaps the best one.

A thought expressed by William James in 1902 and quoted by Wells deserves renewed attention: [Cleckley, 1988 5th edition]

Yonder puny fellow however, whom everyone can beat suffers no chagrin about it, for he has long ago abandoned the attempt to “carry that line,” as the merchants say, of Self at all. With no attempt there can be no failure; with no failure, no humiliation. So our self-feeling in this world depends entirely on what we back ourselves to be and do. It is determined by the ratio of our actualities to our supposed potentialities; a fraction of which our pretensions are the denominator and the numerator our success: thus, self-esteem = Success/Pretensions. Such a fraction may be increased as well by diminishing the denominator as by increasing the numerator. To give up pretensions is as blessed a relief as to get them gratified; and where disappointment is incessant and the struggle unending, this is what men will always do. The history of evangelical theology, with its conviction of sin, its self-despair, and its abandonment of salvation by works, is the deepest of all possible examples, but we meet others in every walk of life….How pleasant is the day when we give up striving to be young—or slender! Thank God! We say, those illusions are gone. Everything added to the self is a burden as well as a pride.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest A Stranger

Hell, yes. "The Fruit of our union polulates the Earth..." Some of the best dialogue too. This is one of the lines that has always stuck with me. One of the things that was never fully explained was Legion's interest in Frank. It is implied at times like in "Powers..." and "Seven and One" that it's his gift, the ablity to understand Legion that is Legion's interest. But in "Lamentation," Fabricant believes it is all of Frank's good intentions. Good being the operative word. In this concluding scene in "Antipas" Lucy clearly believes Frank is a tool of Good the way she is a tool of Evil and interested in him for this reason. This is really intereting to me. I like the idea of Frank doing God's work without really consciously thinking that. This same sentiment is echoed in "Borrowed Time" when Frank breaks down and in a sense prays the to the God he has never really adressed. This makes Frank the greatest possible hero because he does good naturally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hell, yes. "The Fruit of our union polulates the Earth..." Some of the best dialogue too. This is one of the lines that has always stuck with me. One of the things that was never fully explained was Legion's interest in Frank. It is implied at times like in "Powers..." and "Seven and One" that it's his gift, the ablity to understand Legion that is Legion's interest. But in "Lamentation," Fabricant believes it is all of Frank's good intentions. Good being the operative word. In this concluding scene in "Antipas" Lucy clearly believes Frank is a tool of Good the way she is a tool of Evil and interested in him for this reason. This is really intereting to me. I like the idea of Frank doing God's work without really consciously thinking that. This same sentiment is echoed in "Borrowed Time" when Frank breaks down and in a sense prays the to the God he has never really adressed. This makes Frank the greatest possible hero because he does good naturally.
A Stranger...i as well was intrigued by that particular line. Heres my two cents..if you remember, Lucy utters the line.."All men come to me in time"..its possibly a metaphor for the fact that her unions over time with all men have "populated the earth"..she may not be speaking directly about HERSELF, but about the myriads of unions between man and Legion, perhaps other representations of evil, other Lucy's..etc. Its hard to put into words, and i hope you all understand what i am trying to say. Now, as we know, Lucy comes to Frank as a succubus. However, if you remember, when Lucy slipped into the senator's bed after the mother went upstairs to sleep with the daughter, whatever became of that. Was there in fact a sexual encounter? Did she act as a succubus then as well? And if so, then perhaps, just perhaps the child that she was supposed to be carrying wasn't Frank's after all, maybe it was the senators?..that scene was left with far too many unanswered questions...

what do you guys/girls think? Vain? DBSD? A Stranger? Maxx? ZR? can anyone deduce what happened between Lucy and the senator that fateful night?...

"WHERES MY DIVINA" - i think that the intensity of that scene even caught Lance by surprise, because if you notice, he jumps back a bit...

The Fourth Horseman...

post-1098-1130809814_thumb.jpg

"And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him." REV 6:8

fourthhorsemananimatedsigna3rr.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Elders (Moderators)
Now, as we know, Lucy comes to Frank as a succubus. However, if you remember, when Lucy slipped into the senator's bed after the mother went upstairs to sleep with the daughter, whatever became of that. Was there in fact a sexual encounter?

And if so, then perhaps, just perhaps the child that she was supposed to be carrying wasn't Frank's after all, maybe it was the senators?..that scene was left with far too many unanswered questions..

Sorry, Fourth, I'm a bit late on this..

Personally, I don't think it's very likely that Lucy would've creeped into Mr. Saxum's bed just to hold his hand. :censored:

But, in the beginning of Antipas, when the investigators talk about the man found murdered in a motel room, they infer that some pregnant woman had used the bathroom there. It's likely that the woman was Lucy, because "a long-haired man was seen loitering in the area" and the teasing anagram was also on the scene.

If Lucy was pregnant already when in that motel room, she could've not become impregnated by Frank nor John Saxum just a bit later. That is, IF we assume she has the average physiological qualities of a human female. It's extremely rare to carry two or more fetuses with different fathers during one pregnancy, so her claim that Frank (or Saxum, had she claimed that) was the father of her unborn child could easily be just another of her multiple lies. But then again, she's clearly different from other women..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, Fourth, I'm a bit late on this..

Personally, I don't think it's very likely that Lucy would've creeped into Mr. Saxum's bed just to hold his hand. :censored:

But, in the beginning of Antipas, when the investigators talk about the man found murdered in a motel room, they infer that some pregnant woman had used the bathroom there. It's likely that the woman was Lucy, because "a long-haired man was seen loitering in the area" and the teasing anagram was also on the scene.

If Lucy was pregnant already when in that motel room, she could've not become impregnated by Frank nor John Saxum just a bit later. That is, IF we assume she has the average physiological qualities of a human female. It's extremely rare to carry two or more fetuses with different fathers during one pregnancy, so her claim that Frank (or Saxum, had she claimed that) was the father of her unborn child could easily be just another of her multiple lies. But then again, she's clearly different from other women..

DBSD - very, very good post..your reminder of a pregnant woman's hormones being found in the motel room of the murdered man now throws another curve into an already convoluted situation. Was it Lucy's?...remember, the man in question, Robert Ferry, the federal prosecutor found dead in the motel room in Pittsburgh was GAY..was this the prosector who had brought charges against Fabricant in Judge Parks courtroom? Remember, Judge Parks was also killed by Lucy, and he was the Federal Judge who sent Fabricant to prison, are the two related? Did Ferry get a guilty conviction which then set in motion the actions that would lead to both of their deaths at the hands of Lucy Butler? and also, what better way to get the FBI involved than with the murder of a federal prosecutor in the first place..Now, when asked of evidence of body fluids, if you remember, Hollis replies "Where the sun don't shine", obviously to anyone here that is a reference to an encounter with another MALE, most likely the LONG HAIRED MAN found loitering around the motel. Now, knowing that Lucy has the power to appear as either male/female, it could also very easily be assumed that she would carry both male/female hormones, depending on which sex her current state found her in and that whatever she needed to do biologically to achieve her ultimate goal was simply a matter of willing it so, what i believe is that Lucy knew that if the case had been worked from the angle of a random homosexual encounter, then Frank's interest would not have been any more than superficial. She intentionally left the chorionic gonadotropins (pregnant female hormones) behind to ensure that along with the Anitpas clue written on the phone book that Frank would immediately recognize that Lucy was indeed back in his life. Also remember that Frank asked if the toilet seat was left up or down. The picture clearly shows the seat in the down position, and with the only fluid left behind being urine, then you could easily assume it was a woman who last used the toilet, most men dont sit while urinating. Here is where it gets a bit hazy though, leaving the hormones behind would indicate that there was an EXISTING pregnancy PRIOR to the encounter in the motel room with the prosecutor. It is my contention, and again it is only a theory, that Lucy was not "with child" at this particular time, but that she left the PREGNANT female hormones behind as a clue of what her ultimate intentions were, appearing to Frank as a succubus, the act of consumation resulting in her carrying the child of their union clearly for her purposes as she states at the end of Antipas..."The seed of our union populates the earth"...

input anyone? I'm calling everyone, but especially VAIN, MDM, DBSD, ZF, GUNSLINGER, A STRANGER, SELFOSOPHY PSYCHO, MAXX, fire when ready...

anyway, again, its all just conjecture....

also, consider this as well. As told in Antipas, the federal prosecutor was gay, but "not openly" as Hollis claims. Why wouldn't Lucy, if she had assumed the shape of the LONG HAIRED MAN at the time of the encounter, choose a hetersexual female federal agent? Why choose a gay male? To discredit the person and bring embarrassment and shame to their family and the FBI? It just cannot be an arbitrary, random encounter, but i dont have the time to delve into it further...for now, i will leave it open to discussion..

The Fourth Horseman...

"And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him." REV 6:8

fourthhorsemananimatedsigna3rr.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fourth,

your commentary on the history of Lucy Butler is quite thought-provoking indeed. I will attempt in a matter of a few lines to offer my expostulation of the matter.

I begin with an aside...the name Robert Ferry and the fact that he was a gay male struck a chord with me and I wonder if the last name was an intentional pun or a mere oversight. However, given the attention to detail in the rest of the series one has to wonder....

Regarding our lamia Lucy Butler. I can certainly find insight into your ideations regarding the use of the female hormones in the Pittsburgh motel. However, if we assume that Lucy planted them, then the obvious question becomes "from whom did she get them." That is, ostensibly, particularly given the current storyline and historical arc of Lucy Butler, she either a)killed a pregnant woman, or b)used her supernatural powers to get them in a non-homicidal yet nonetheless deviant manner.

My conceptualization of Lucy Butler revolves around the concept of the succubus (vide supra) and possesses a dualism in that such powers serve to promulgate two central threads--one central to the MM emotional-relational arc. First, the concept of Lucy sapping the energy and good spirit from any and all individuals with whom she comes into contact with--that is emptying the good and replacing it with evil. This would be obvious role of the succubus in illustrating the power of evil and its associated temptations (particularly that with a sexual element and this is again hinted at in all 3 seasons). Second, and more crucial to what I perceive to be Carter's vision, was the tacit point that Frank's gift required a level of isolation and emotional seclusion that was not compatible with reciprocal human attachment (note this excludes his relationship with Jordan since she does not provide him in a reciprocal fashion). The issue of Frank's inability to effectively manage his gift and his relationship with Catherine, as well as his failure to conquer evil---but in the form of a female figure Lucy Butler--suggest a fundamental problem of coexistence of a man's gift and the need for reciprocal attachment [romantic] relationships. That is, Lucy, in addition to reflecting Legion, also reflects the inherent polarities of human genius and attachment. Frank can't coexist with Catherine and he can't defeat Legion--who ironically, throughout the series, is portrayed predominately and most poignantly in female form. If we accept that Frank can't defeat this female portrayal of Legion, we also must accept that his gift can't co-exist, to the degree it operates on, with a meaningful reciprocal attachment. We have seen this theme repeated in several great pieces of literary and cinematic work. It is this subthreshold struggle, of Frank trying to make his relationship with Catherine work, of trying to defeat the female legion that disables (to some degree) his gift, that permeate the human struggle that Carter portrays. While I accept, ab ovo, that the key element of Lucy's presentation was as Legion, it is this subtreshold element of struggle, and its reflection of Frank's central struggle that are more poignant and emotionally moving for me.

V

post-1148-1131246113_thumb.jpg

A thought expressed by William James in 1902 and quoted by Wells deserves renewed attention: [Cleckley, 1988 5th edition]

Yonder puny fellow however, whom everyone can beat suffers no chagrin about it, for he has long ago abandoned the attempt to “carry that line,” as the merchants say, of Self at all. With no attempt there can be no failure; with no failure, no humiliation. So our self-feeling in this world depends entirely on what we back ourselves to be and do. It is determined by the ratio of our actualities to our supposed potentialities; a fraction of which our pretensions are the denominator and the numerator our success: thus, self-esteem = Success/Pretensions. Such a fraction may be increased as well by diminishing the denominator as by increasing the numerator. To give up pretensions is as blessed a relief as to get them gratified; and where disappointment is incessant and the struggle unending, this is what men will always do. The history of evangelical theology, with its conviction of sin, its self-despair, and its abandonment of salvation by works, is the deepest of all possible examples, but we meet others in every walk of life….How pleasant is the day when we give up striving to be young—or slender! Thank God! We say, those illusions are gone. Everything added to the self is a burden as well as a pride.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest A Stranger
Fourth,

your commentary on the history of Lucy Butler is quite thought-provoking indeed. I will attempt in a matter of a few lines to offer my expostulation of the matter.

I begin with an aside...the name Robert Ferry and the fact that he was a gay male struck a chord with me and I wonder if the last name was an intentional pun or a mere oversight. However, given the attention to detail in the rest of the series one has to wonder....

Regarding our lamia Lucy Butler. I can certainly find insight into your ideations regarding the use of the female hormones in the Pittsburgh motel. However, if we assume that Lucy planted them, then the obvious question becomes "from whom did she get them." That is, ostensibly, particularly given the current storyline and historical arc of Lucy Butler, she either a)killed a pregnant woman, or b)used her supernatural powers to get them in a non-homicidal yet nonetheless deviant manner.

My conceptualization of Lucy Butler revolves around the concept of the succubus (vide supra) and possesses a dualism in that such powers serve to promulgate two central threads--one central to the MM emotional-relational arc. First, the concept of Lucy sapping the energy and good spirit from any and all individuals with whom she comes into contact with--that is emptying the good and replacing it with evil. This would be obvious role of the succubus in illustrating the power of evil and its associated temptations (particularly that with a sexual element and this is again hinted at in all 3 seasons). Second, and more crucial to what I perceive to be Carter's vision, was the tacit point that Frank's gift required a level of isolation and emotional seclusion that was not compatible with reciprocal human attachment (note this excludes his relationship with Jordan since she does not provide him in a reciprocal fashion). The issue of Frank's inability to effectively manage his gift and his relationship with Catherine, as well as his failure to conquer evil---but in the form of a female figure Lucy Butler--suggest a fundamental problem of coexistence of a man's gift and the need for reciprocal attachment [romantic] relationships. That is, Lucy, in addition to reflecting Legion, also reflects the inherent polarities of human genius and attachment. Frank can't coexist with Catherine and he can't defeat Legion--who ironically, throughout the series, is portrayed predominately and most poignantly in female form. If we accept that Frank can't defeat this female portrayal of Legion, we also must accept that his gift can't co-exist, to the degree it operates on, with a meaningful reciprocal attachment. We have seen this theme repeated in several great pieces of literary and cinematic work. It is this subthreshold struggle, of Frank trying to make his relationship with Catherine work, of trying to defeat the female legion that disables (to some degree) his gift, that permeate the human struggle that Carter portrays. While I accept, ab ovo, that the key element of Lucy's presentation was as Legion, it is this subtreshold element of struggle, and its reflection of Frank's central struggle that are more poignant and emotionally moving for me.

V

I always thought that the urine was Lucy's. It's unclear who the father but I think it is meant to be that way. It's scary because don't know exactly what Lucy is or what the limits of her power are. The urnine in the toliet was left there because she knew if Frank saw it, he would know that it doesn't fit with the gay male scenerio. And yeah, I too noticed the "Ferry" name and think it was intentional.

Frank's gift as Vain68 points out was created by Carter to represent genius. He goes into this on the commentary for the Pilot. Frank's gift is a kind of genius that isolates himself from the world because he can see the world in a different way. No matter how much he loves Catherine or she him, she cannot see the world the way he does. She knows this more than he does and goes into detail in "Gehenna." Frank has a capacity for understanding Evil that only Evil itself can fully appreciate. So there is that strange bond he has with Legion and Lucy.

Although Frank may always be alone in a certain way, he only helps to widen the gap by distancing himself even more in year one. He thinks he can save and protect everyone and his need for control helps to isolate himself even furhter. Catherine attempts to console him many times in season one and by year two she doesn't because he isn't learning. She seems to pity him by "Midnight of the Century." By the time year two hits they are seperated and the MLM Group create more responsablity, or a sense of responsablity and this adds to his isolation even more, he doesn't know who he can trust anymore.

There is the connection he is said to have with Lara, but I think that was not played out very well. Lara sees an Angel and is overcome with strong feelings. What these feelings are, she doesn't know, and what the Angel is, too, is unclear.

But back to the point I was trying to make, which is that though Frank's gift (or genius) isolates himself from Catherine (the world) he still needed that connection. I mean, some would argue that everyone is always isolated but Frank's refusal to conquer is fears.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...
Being stuck at home for the last few days, i was catching up on my season 3 eps and watched Antipas and Saturn Dreaming of Mercury and started to wonder about Lucy Butler and where the character came from, her back story and who she really is. Personally, i don't know that i have an opinion to offer as to who or, more importantly, what she really is. Is she a human? A demon (in human costume)?

I don't recall a backstory on her ever being explained. She just sort of appeared one episode and we all suddenly knew she was from Frank's past. What happened between them? Also (and i may be way off here, so keep me straight), but does Lucy tend to gravitate towards children to do her dirty work? I know she's been in eps where her 'influence' was on adults, but children seem to be her direction. And maybe I'm thinking this because Antipas is fresh in my mind, but even in Saturn, she appears briefly in the end with the child in the fire (which is one of my all-time favorite/creepy MM moments). And the whole sex scene between she and Frank in Antipas tends to sway my thoughts here as well.

Has she ever been explained? And if this discussion has already occurred, please forgive me. I did a search and didn't find much here in the way of her backstory.

thanks much,

LBG

LBG..Are you out there?

I'm new to the site community. I will be very brief. I think that in the episode "Room Without A View" there is at the end of the episode something of which Frank Black finds. A news paper clipping dated back in the 19th century (or was it the early 20th?). Anyhow, it is a picture of that exact image of Lucy Butler - the real woman. I believe that short clip holds the key to the answer about the back ground of Lucy Butler. The Lucy Butler we see in the series is not Lucy Butler at all. I blieve she is dead, but that which we see is the manifestation of her physical appearance to cover that of the demon. Did Legion kill Lucy Butler. Does Legion keep what it kills (Riddick?) - or at least gets to keep something of the victim?

Just a thought to throw out.

Edited by Photeinos

Photeinos,

kai to fwV en th skotia fainei, kai h skotia auto ou katelaben.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LBG..Are you out there?

I'm new to the site community. I will be very brief. I think that in the episode "Room Without A View" there is at the end of the episode something of which Frank Black finds. A news paper clipping dated back in the 19th century (or was it the early 20th?). Anyhow, it is a picture of that exact image of Lucy Butler - the real woman. I believe that short clip holds the key to the answer about the back ground of Lucy Butler. The Lucy Butler we see in the series is not Lucy Butler at all. I blieve she is dead, but that which we see is the manifestation of her physical appearance to cover that of the demon. Did Legion kill Lucy Butler. Does Legion keep what it kills (Riddick?) - or at least gets to keep something of the victim?

Just a thought to throw out.

I like your idea, but it could also be that the demon has always used the Lucy skin - even in times past. When the the good doctor awakes in Lucy's house doesn't he say "oh it's you" or something like that? To me that indicates Lucy is a form of Lucifer himself, and not just another human taken over by legion.

"What you do when you think no one is looking is who you are."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"A Room With No View" took a quick glimpse at who Lucy Butler was. Her real name is Annie Martin. You can see this towards the end when Frank see's Lucy Butlers picture on the wall. He takes it down and looks at the back. If you freeze the frame you can see a old newspaper clipping that has a picture of Lucy on it. The article is dated something like 1911? if i remember right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...