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I had an interesting idea last night while watching Antipas. Would Lucy Butler be capable of having a virgin birth? Lucy is capable of giving birth - we know that. And we know that Lucy is capable of switching from male form to female form. So could she, in essence, create her own baby? Give birth to what would ostensibly be her her own little antichrist, in a manner that if you took the bible literally, Mary had a virgin birth when she had Jesus.

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"THE ANTICHRIST DOES NOT COME AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED. WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED, THE REIGN OF THE JUST BEGINS; THEN COMES THE ANTICHRIST, TO CONFOUND THE JUST, AND THEN COMES THE FINAL BATTLE..."

- Alinardo of Grottaferrata, December 1323 (The Name of the Rose, Umberto Eco)

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This would then assume that the 'devil' in whatever manifestation or spirituality you perceive it to be, has the capacity to transcend the same boundaries that 'God' did in allowing Mary to conceive as a virgin. As such, we thus fall onto an interesting, yet very slippery slope.

V

A thought expressed by William James in 1902 and quoted by Wells deserves renewed attention: [Cleckley, 1988 5th edition]

Yonder puny fellow however, whom everyone can beat suffers no chagrin about it, for he has long ago abandoned the attempt to “carry that line,” as the merchants say, of Self at all. With no attempt there can be no failure; with no failure, no humiliation. So our self-feeling in this world depends entirely on what we back ourselves to be and do. It is determined by the ratio of our actualities to our supposed potentialities; a fraction of which our pretensions are the denominator and the numerator our success: thus, self-esteem = Success/Pretensions. Such a fraction may be increased as well by diminishing the denominator as by increasing the numerator. To give up pretensions is as blessed a relief as to get them gratified; and where disappointment is incessant and the struggle unending, this is what men will always do. The history of evangelical theology, with its conviction of sin, its self-despair, and its abandonment of salvation by works, is the deepest of all possible examples, but we meet others in every walk of life….How pleasant is the day when we give up striving to be young—or slender! Thank God! We say, those illusions are gone. Everything added to the self is a burden as well as a pride.

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As I was taught [ in sunday school] Mary was impregnated by the holy spirit [ immaculant conception] and therefore a virgin having never had sex with a human male. Lucy on the other hand was obviously having [ :censored: ] with Frank [ and who knows how many other men] so she would not be considered a virgin and therefore could not have a virgin birth.

Whether the antichrist will be a full demond or a half-demond [half human] depends on interpitation. Our church never really made it clear, just that he would come.

Anyone else have a thought on that aspect?

you can pick your friends... you can pick your nose .... but you can NEVER pick your friend's nose !!

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT!

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Guest chrisnu

While Lucy cannot have a virgin birth, is she capable of immaculate conception? Who is Divina, and how does she relate to Lucy? We aren't given clear answers, other than somehow, Divina's footprints match those of Lucy's dead child. Perhaps it's just evil finding another way into someone else. Evil propagates itself.

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is she capable of immaculate conception

This represents both the central question and the potential slippery slope.

A thought expressed by William James in 1902 and quoted by Wells deserves renewed attention: [Cleckley, 1988 5th edition]

Yonder puny fellow however, whom everyone can beat suffers no chagrin about it, for he has long ago abandoned the attempt to “carry that line,” as the merchants say, of Self at all. With no attempt there can be no failure; with no failure, no humiliation. So our self-feeling in this world depends entirely on what we back ourselves to be and do. It is determined by the ratio of our actualities to our supposed potentialities; a fraction of which our pretensions are the denominator and the numerator our success: thus, self-esteem = Success/Pretensions. Such a fraction may be increased as well by diminishing the denominator as by increasing the numerator. To give up pretensions is as blessed a relief as to get them gratified; and where disappointment is incessant and the struggle unending, this is what men will always do. The history of evangelical theology, with its conviction of sin, its self-despair, and its abandonment of salvation by works, is the deepest of all possible examples, but we meet others in every walk of life….How pleasant is the day when we give up striving to be young—or slender! Thank God! We say, those illusions are gone. Everything added to the self is a burden as well as a pride.

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While Lucy cannot have a virgin birth, is she capable of immaculate conception? Who is Divina, and how does she relate to Lucy? We aren't given clear answers, other than somehow, Divina's footprints match those of Lucy's dead child. Perhaps it's just evil finding another way into someone else. Evil propagates itself.
Walkabout, wonderful logical deduction...sometimes there is no other answer than the simple one...Chrisnu...very nicely put concerning evil. I agree, again, we are left with too many questions concerning Divina and her relationship with the dead baby's footprints...if we can deduce that Divina (which means "divine" or "heavenly") is a true spawn of Lucy, then will she be as ageless as Lucy? Will she, like Lucy, never die? and also being around the same age as Jordan (the river in which Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist), wouldn't it be delicious to, at some future date, to pit those two against each other, their powers clashing in a titanic struggle between good and evil?

The Fourth Horseman...

"And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him." REV 6:8

fourthhorsemananimatedsigna3rr.gif

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Guest SouthernCelt
Whether the antichrist will be a full demond or a half-demond [half human] depends on interpitation. Our church never really made it clear, just that he would come.

That lack of a clear origin for the Anti-Christ is why authors/writers can get away with so many stories with different origins for the Anti-Christ. Between TV and movies, I've probably seen at least 10 variations on how the Anti-Christ gets to human form.

The only thing both religion and religious-horror authors agree on is that the Anti-Christ does achieve human form but with supernatural powers.

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if we can deduce that Divina (which means "divine" or "heavenly") is a true spawn of Lucy, then will she be as ageless as Lucy? Will she, like Lucy, never die? and also being around the same age as Jordan (the river in which Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist), wouldn't it be delicious to, at some future date, to pit those two against each other, their powers clashing in a titanic struggle between good and evil?

The Fourth Horseman...

Fourth Horseman! What an absolutely delicious idea! :tasty:

Would you be up to writing that story? And if not, and nobody steps forward to work with that idea, when I come upon a time such as I have a clear pallette and am looking for something to write, may I?

We get the best knowledge of Lucy Butler's child in Lamentation ...

FRANK: Something else about your past has come to light. You had a child. A son.

LUCY BUTLER: Yes, he died four years ago.

WATTS: You were tried for his murder.

LUCY BUTLER: (snaps at Watts) I was found innocent.

FRANK: He died of cyanide poisoning - the same thing the federal judge that tried Dr

Fabricant died of.

Now here's my thing. Lucy Butler is a dual natured being - capable of being both male and female. So it makes sense that she would give birth to a child who was also dual natured. Divinia is a girl. Lucy Butler's child was a boy. Perhaps instead of bearing one dual natured child, the original cell split creating one boy and one girl. The question is, how did one cell get into Una?

Una, Divinia's mother, is the name of The Faerie Queen in Edmond Spencer's epic poem, The Faerie Queen. A wikipedia search brought up the page at this link... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Faerie_Queene . Una is an allegorical character "who symbolizes the true Protestant who represents Roman Catholicism."

The transfer of this cell from Lucy to Una may have been a supernatural event or perhaps something more down to earth. Perhaps the cell that gave birth to Divinia was removed from Lucy and given to Una through the miracle of modern science.

According to Wikipedia, Una the Faerie Queen is discussed at length in Camille Paglia's Sexual Personnae: Art and Decadence from Nefertiri to Emily Dickenson. The overall theme of this work how Christianity did not defeat Paganism, but rather embraced it. If nothing else, Lucy Butler is defintely a sexually charged beast, and Una, it would seem, her opposite. Was the intent then that Antipas would be in fact a symbolic version of Sexual Personnae? For to have one of Lucy's baby's cells in her would be a symbollic allusion to Christianity (Roman Catholicism) embracing Paganism.

Wow! Thoughts? Opinions?

Finally, when I said Virgin Birth what I actually meant was immaculate conception! And that is exactly what I was getting at - thanks Chrisnu! Lucy Butler transforms from one sex to the other. It would seem logical then that at a certain stage of the process she might be able to find herself in a state of androgenous hermaphediticness - neother male nor female, yet both. In theory while in this state her sperm and his egg could actually meet and self-impregnate - no sexual intercourse required - and if completed the transformation to the Lucy form then the fertilized egg would be inside her. If she retained that form once the embrio had started to form then it's conceivable that she could carry to term a baby and give birth to a child of her own making!

So I think it is possible.

Now lets revisit this theory for a second. What if the transfer took place and Lucy gave birth to a boy. Una gave birth to a girl. We know that the antichrist is supposed to be born into this world. We know that Christ is supposed to return. Divinia certainly has the devil in her. What if Una (Roman Catholicism) who named her child Divinia was supposed to give birth to the returning Christ and Lucy (Paganism) was supposed to give birth to the Antichrist.

Now, if you remember your "Jurassic Park" theory of how to make a dinosaur population that's all female ...

All vertebrate embryos are inherently female anyway. It takes an extra hormone at the right developmental stage to create a male, and we simply deny them that.

... the same holds true for the making of boys in humans.

So the question is, if Una gave birth to a devil-child, what would Lucy give birth to? You guessed it. And why would she kill her baby? Because instead of producing a devil-child she gave birth to the would-be saviour!

What do you think?

Like Peter Watts says in Skull and Bones, "Well, it's somewhere to start."

Visit Maxx's Blog - The New Millennium: The Time is Now - for the newest ideas to come from the mind of Maxx Blackwell.

gallery_1248_65_32681.jpg

"THE ANTICHRIST DOES NOT COME AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED. WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED, THE REIGN OF THE JUST BEGINS; THEN COMES THE ANTICHRIST, TO CONFOUND THE JUST, AND THEN COMES THE FINAL BATTLE..."

- Alinardo of Grottaferrata, December 1323 (The Name of the Rose, Umberto Eco)

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If it's the 1013 world anything is possible... Lucy could give birth to an alien that poses as an FBI agent.

On another note., isn't it true that there is a fish that will have virgin birth if no males are around? Or was it that if there were no males some of the females would turn into males... I saw it some PBS show long ago?

"What you do when you think no one is looking is who you are."

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