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As one of the founding members of this board, I apologize for my absence in recent months. My upcoming wedding, ongoing business venture, and impending real estate procurement have simply taken my spare time and thrown it to the dogs so to speak.

My comments are to the recent world events that have taken our TV screens by storm. As with any world conflict, many will use their own personal beliefs to translate them into an apocalyptic prophecy.  As for myself, I have evaluated many different opinions, prophecies, and texts, but have come to no conclusions so far. I am interested in hearing other member's thoughts, but I do not want to get into a political debate. I myself feel that this conflict is unfortunate but unavoidable.  Only the end result will prove whether or not the actions of the USA are justified.

Matt

Millennium Collections

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.....great to hear from you again matt. we ALL missed you very much around here.             ...i'll simply add this-(i have no stomach for political debate myself)-

1)-we are at war with iraq.

2)-we now,OFFICIALY,have 2-3-times more enemies than previous.

3)-terrorists groups will now at least double/triple-or the membership of current groups will swell to incredible levels.

4)-CNN just blurbed that "...north korea has just announced that in thier mind the U.S. has pushed them to the brink of nuclear war"  and  "....the U.S. has now shown that they are bent on world domination".-(president-?-of N.KOREA)

5)-we recently invaded turkish airspace WITHOUT authorisation,which is historicly been seen as an act of agression by any and all countries.-(and turkey has EVERY f***ing right to refuse to be a part of this......;they ARE a soveriegn country and are,or were,an ally. and a DEMOCRATIC one at that)

        ...my feelings on the above are complete fear and anxiety. i am angry,fed up,frustrated and TERRIFIED. this is the first time in my adult life that i have this anxious and fearfull about the state of my country and the state of the world in general. lord help us because I DOUBT much anyone one else in this world is going too.                        

                  "THE LARGER THEY ARE..................."

                                          ~se7en :ouro:

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Hi

I feel a bit worried too. However, I doubt I could really understand war unless it unfolds in my street, unless I get involved in it.

What worries me is how Mr Bush (I am purposefuly not mixing the people of the US of A with their government) can throw away all international rules like rubbish. This is quite abusive for the UN and I truly wonder why not one country had the gut to tell him directly. The UN was designed upon past disasters in order not to recreate such atrocities. The ideas of international laws and regulations, the idea of lawful or unlawful war are great. They should be not only tools but also matter for the brain. Of course, like at school, there are always those clever enough to spot the seam and slip through it, unknown to the others. The same who take delight in playing tricks when the teacher is not looking. Unlike school, these bad boys do not throw gravel nor extort lunch money. UN's bad boys take their own people's responsibility when they act, right or bad. Mr Bush made a very big deal. Despite the opposition of some of his playground partners, he decided to go at it alone, to bypass the very same regulations former presidents tried to put on paper. He decided his motives were sufficient to place him above everything else. How selfish!! Of course, I guess he and his advisors have good reasons. Or maybe not. However, this very decision might ignite a big powder barrel. He will impersonate this (right or wrong) initiative, but for those unlucky enough to be on the wrong side of the gun, all his American fellows have lost their credibility. Freedom may have become a fashionable word, and I would not like being tied to such a decision. That is typicaly how the fate of a nation rests upon the wishes of a few men.

So Mr Bush tried his luck, and succeeded because no one raised one finger to prevent him from waging that war. No one reminded him that he too has to follow the rules he defends. When those of 100 kg speak, those of 50 kg sit and listen. Just like at school, for the fun of it. That looks like other might do the same later. I remember that the leader of North Korea stated that he may start his own preventive war too. And why not? Troop movements at the border, reinforcement of the local warfare, opposition's will to interfere in NK's self-determination, that is pretty much more of a casus belli than what started Gulf War II. Beside of that NK is out of the UN system, and has no political reason (but could have moral reason) to abide by international protocol. If they want to attack their southern neighbour, all of the system will turn against us, but they will not be obliged to wage a proper war. So who will be next to try his luck? My guess is that it will be Mr Bush again.

I suppose he will win GWII, will instate himself in the position of world's best right-doer and will find another playground to spread his God blessed sense of freedom. Whatever. I suppose the next target is NK. And what if NK, contrary to Iraq, does have weapons? What if, instead of mass defection at the borders, retaliation equals the offence? The "God bless America" (no offence meant to the previous post) of old will turn into a non-rethorical prayer! Always easy to strike abroad, isn't it? But what will the next step be? What weapons could they use above those who did not do "enough" damage for one to retreat? What if NK have nothing to lose but themselves? Mind you, it could well be the case in the Gulf. What if they find there the nasty surprise they used as a motive for the invasion and demise of Hussein? A John Cleese-like "told you that" will not be enough to cover the disaster of the whole operation.

Did any of you see the movie "Deterence"? That was a bad movie at heart, but the easy way depicted in it (nuking Bagdad) is still the same in real life. You can decide a war without any international support, so you can use any mean you will find necessary. Mr Bush put himself above the rules and there could be nothing to stop one exaggeration after another. In the film, the president makes an allocution to explain that he indeed decided to nuke half the country, and that he alone could be held responsible for that. I guess we would see the same if it were to happen, but I cannot help thinking that it would be a case of "the interest of many outweights the interest of the few", where "many" is freedom or whatever cover for the war, and the "few" is the president himself. Judge him all right, put him on the chair all right, it was bad all right but they are nuked all the same. Mission accomplished.

Does not it seems so petty, so childish. All this use of symbolism, all the martial speeches to the masses. Piece of fun: both Bush and Hussein invocate the same God in this war. Like what was said by an inquisitor during the crusade against the Albigeois: kill'em all, God will recognise his own. Did we spend so many centuries of evolution to serve that kind of crap in front of camera? So it seems, so be it. All this is pretty ridiculous. How can Mr Bush try to convince his UN partners of the legitimity of an invasion when he takes illegitimate decision. How can he target "rogue states" after becoming one so easily? That is a real nightmare! What will happen when he finds a bone after so much biting? Who would cover him up? What credibility could he hope for when he condemns a Turkish invasion of Iraqi airspace for its unilaterality? Players cannot change the rules of the game while they are in it. No wonder everything American seems unfair or oppressive.

My biggest disappointment in all this matter is the use of UNO. It appeared as a mere puppet, a mockery of an assembly. Its purpose could mean much more for all the countries involved in it. The means to speak, the means to argue, the means to oppose have been flushed in the blink of an eye. My second biggest disappointment is that any country self-determination is menaced. Not only one government representative can tell which countries are on the light side and which are on the dark side, not only can he start a war (infringing laws and common sense by the way) with no real reaction from anywhere, but also can he pose as a Champion, a Defender of freedom/peace/righteousness, also can he take his people in the same frantic clash of culture and politics.

I have made this in bits while at work, so I hope it still has sense in it! All in all, what History becomes now is another source of shame and division. I cannot see any end to it, I cannot see how a man of nowaday can be better than his ancestor of a dozen of centuries ago.

As for any end-of-the-world feelings, I guess the situation now is only the extension of what occured 1,5 years ago. Some people then said that the world would never be the same, and I think the change is just beginning. As to what will result of it, I may cross my fingers but I doubt the air will be purer and the spirits happier. The worst apocalyptic scheme would be that we still would be there to live after the end of this world, if it has to turn bad.

Regards

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Greetings to you, Matt. I hope all your plans work out well. I think it's good to be reminded at times like this that lives still go on being lived, but also that normal things, like getting married, buying a house, etc. go on against a larger background - sometimes the background of something global, and sometimes against a personal background. Nothing of what happens in our lives can be separate from everything else.

Like se7enand1, I too have no stomach for political debate, and indeed don't have the wherewithal to get involved in such.

What concerns me, however, watching the current news broadcasts, is whether those involved here in the west have a sufficiently good understanding of the cultures involved. Now, here I'm going out on a limb, because I'm very well aware that I probably know very little of what I'm talking about, so keep in mind my ignorance, but also know that I'd appreciate comments from those more knowledgeable than me.

In a sense, humans are still very tribal in mentality. In the west, there seems to be a different kind of tribality (is that a proper word?) in that we can be tribal about lots of different things all at the same time - TV shows, music, sports, whatever. It's a disparate kind of tribalism so we can belong to different tribes. I don't think that's the same kind of tribalism found in other cultures, where the most important aspect of tribalism isn't personal interests but personal safety. The warlord system that got focussed on in terms of Afghanistan seems to be the kind that probably still applies to some extent in Iraq. Sure there is need for Saddam himself to appear strong and the saviour of the people for the sake of his ego, but perhaps there's also the need of the ordinary people to believe that he will protect them, come what may. So it seems to me that it isn't just what's happening now, it's what will happen afterwards if Saddam is ousted from power. Do the Americans and the British really understand what might be the consequence of success?

The subject is Millenniumistic since that show in particular threw out to the viewing public the question of what evil is and where it can be found, how it can be identified and whether it can ever be defeated. The west sees Saddam as evil - and some his acts should certainly be described as such - but do we really understand the kind of culture that can allow such dictators to operate? Do we really know how to introduce to his people the concept of democracy?

What worries me the most is Tony Blair's role here. Over the last few weeks the most chilling thought I've had is that here we have a British Prime Minister who doesn't seem to me to have learned the lessons of the last few decades in terms of understanding the culture and the tribalism of the conflict in Northern Ireland, which led to so much tragedy both there and here on the mainland. Although the focus has always been on the bombs, whether delivered by B52s or in a small bag, the real problem is about which group people belong to and how threatened they feel, and also how much of a role propaganda plays.

As Matt says: "Only the end result will prove whether or not the actions of the USA are justified." But the end result won't, and probably can't, be supplied by us. It'll all be about how the Iraqis and other Arab nations react. And we'll need to listen very carefully to what they say, and we'll need to try very hard to understand them.

Well, I've probably just written a load of rubbish. I was going to sign off with "wait, worry, who cares?" then thought that was a bit too cute, then thought, well, it pretty much sums up what I'm feeling right now.

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Guest Selfosophy Psycho

Matt,

I just want to say a hearty "Welcome back to the Group"!!!  You have been sorely missed, and oft we were asking and speculating about your whereabouts and activities.  We knew you had an huge amount on your proverbial plate!  But we sure missed you.  I don't think there was a conversation (cyber or phone) went by when The Old Man, se7enand1, &one, and I did not wonder at your absense and hope for you return.  Glad to have you back.

Until this past week, I have been a bit marginal in my participation at the board over the past several weeks, due to a new relationship, job stress, job searching, etc.  So, I relate, man!

As to the current events...

My take on prophecy is pretty much the same as my take on belief systems in general... people make it up as they go along (and have done so for countless generations since the birth of sentient human consciousness... building on what others have made and passed on to them, and so forth...  and actually, we do so by the minute if you really think about, observe, and study the way we put together from our senses to our minds what so called reality is...).

I am not discounting the possibility of human pre-cog, or trans-temporal (ie time) consciousness.  I think I have a very strong sense and intuition for people, life, and so forth, when coupled with my perception, my observation skills, experience, and intelligence.  But, I think discussion of a pre-cog, prophetic element in these discussions would distract from what I think one of the roots of it all is.

Having said all of this, I really have no need or impluse to speculate about some millennial or apocalyptic explanation or context for current events, current war, or those of any other period of history.  They are what they are.  I think that the events of the day are no different than any other destructive human activities over the centuries.

I think they are all inevitable results of a flawed and diseased human consciousness, that has existed and flourished in our species since not long after the birth of self-consciousness (Goopta's "greatest mystery of life"  LOL!).  Consequently, everything that has resulted from this diseased human consciousness is part of the disease and manifests inself in many ways.

So, to tell you the truth, the only thing I think about the current headlines and war is that the disease is just advancing and worsening in us all as the years go by.  In other words, I am really not much phased or affected by these events, because I just see it as the disease of human consciousness/civilization playing out its malignant pathology.

To tell you the truth, I would be far more interested in discussing aspects of Saddam's cult of personality, police state, etc.

Now, a little disclaimer here.  Just because I read these events in this manner, does not mean that I am insensitive or unmindful of the animal (including human) and environmental suffering that these events have caused and are causing.  But, again, ultimately, I think the cause of it all started a long time ago.

That's just my take.  Soundin' kinda downbeat, I know.  But it really doesn't sadden me.  It is actually a kind of acceptance I have.  And, if everything that we have built as a species is just part of a disease (a disease that tries to cure itself with aspects of its own disease!  Religion, psychology, sociology, politics, etc, etc... LOL!), then it really makes it hard to take anything too seriously, or seriously at all, for that matter!

And, if all else fails... there is always the Selfosophical Gestures that can save the day!

Wide Angle Upbeatness,

:hands2:  :hands4:  Scott

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WOW!!!! I did not expect such lenthy responses, but in a way I should  have expected them.  :D This morning's campaign by our Air Forces was simply astounding, but not nearly as astounding as the pictures relayed by our news correspondents following the ground troops in southern Iraq. I have long questioned our intentions in this conflict, but seeing Sheite Muslims cheering on our troops as they pass through makes me feel that we might be doing the right thing.

As for the film "Deterence", I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm just glad that there are now two of us that have actually seen it.     :D  While the plot is somewhat controversial, I think that the overall premise of the film is very fascinating.

For the moment I will remain hopelessly optimistic in thinking that we are doing the region a justice. Only time will tell.

Thanks for all your input and I hope this ball we all live on survives this whole thing.

Matt

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Guest fledgling666

my only belief in prophecy of any sort is that man is destined to eventually destroy himself.

current events only make that more clear.

the most powerful military in the world and not a single fighter jet in the air until an hour after the pentagon is hit? THE PENTAGON?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this scenario is absurd, it is rediculous that any American would believe that 2 jets could be piloted into the world trade center within 15 minutes of each other, then a third, 45 minutes later into the pentagon, then a fourth a little while later crashed to the ground without a single fighter jet in the air. this does not and cannot happen in this country, with it's redundancy of intelligence and it's over-ready and over-willing military. it just could not have happened unless it was done by us, by someone who had access to somehow get somebody to look the other way, by someone with the power to keep it's planning secret, by somebody so deep that they may not even exist. it could be as simple as a computer model and a control program. they tried to make it sound like we got attacked because we were soft, when in actuallity, they are trying to make us softer by telling us that. they want us to depend on them for safety and security and then they'll slowly take that away in the guise that it's being taken by the "terrorists." one day, they'll realize, there's a reason no one in the past ever got to the point of world dominance, somewhere, somebody will fight, somebody will have just enough umph to get the job done right and it will be messy, really messy. there isn't a whole lot we can do anymore, we put them there and they have now become sort-of self-aware, absolute power has corrupted absolutely. sometimes i wish there was a god, then maybe judgement day would be real and just maybe it would come in our time, but there isn't and it isn't and it won't. we will be slowly oppressed for the next few hundred years and when that is over, maybe we'll have learned our lesson, or maybe we will no longer have the burden of thinking. open your eyes now, do something.

murrah building, okc, 2 seperate shock waves heard and seen on seizmographic equipment

mcveigh seen with at least one other man during the time just before the blast, not terry whatshisname

the fact that 4,800 lbs of fertilizer could not bring down over 1/4 of the entire building, especially that high-up into the structure, especially when the explosion was not directed toward the building in any way

the fact that ATF persons were seen immediately afterward removing explosive devices that didn't discharge through the rear of the building

the fact that mcveigh got the death penalty from an act commited in 95 when the death penalty was added to law in 96

the fact that the world trade center buildings are the ONLY buildings in history to have supposedly collapsed in an implosive way from heat supposedly cuasing the main structural beams to buckle

the fact that tower seven collapsed the same way even though there was no fire in it and no jet fuel and no crash of any sort

the fact that no wreckage of any kind was found inside the pentagon

the fact that only the outermost section of the pentagon was damaged

the fact that even though it was reported that the plane hit the ground before hitting the pentagon, photos and video show without a doubt that the ground just in front and leading to the area of the building that was damaged, was not damaged at all

the fact that the hole made in the pentagon was not large enough to fit a plane, even in pieces

question these things as you wonder why we are taking out saddam hussein and destroying afganistan. why we are so dang worried about n korea having nukes, why we have new enemies popping up all over the world. just curious, anyone see bush wearing a blue turbin recently? me neither, just thought i'd throw that out there.

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Guest Selfosophy Psycho

Here's my thing... when it comes to people with fundamentalist belief systems... whether they be George W and John Ass-croft, or Islamic terrorists... because they have the belief system that they do, I do not trust them one bit.  I would believe that fundamentalists are capable of anything.  In the case of our Administration and other fundamentalists in power in this country, I believe they would sell out their country, civil liberties and it's people in a minute, if it meant furthering their religious aims, or their own aims which they justify as their religious aims - which really just adds a disguise to their greed for power, wealth, control, and domination.

There is absolutely no proof that such religious nutballs as George W, John Ass-croft, and other christian-right-wingers who hold positions of power had anything to do with the events of 9-11.  However, it is really easy for me to envision a senario where certain powerful religious factions in power in this country would allow certain events to occur, so that: #1 it would create a certain socio-political climate of fear and mindless nationalism, where they could begin to desensitize people to having their civil liberties suspended one by one; #2 it would ignite the zealous authoritarian religious furvor that had been building the last few years in this country; and #3 so that the beginnings of a theocracy could start to be established.

It is soooooooo easy for me to envision a senario like this when religious nutballs are in positions of power as they are in this county.  I have almost no trust whatsoever in anyone that claims fundamentalist religious or ideological principles, whether Christian, Islamic, Judaic, Atheist, Humanist, or any other religion or ideology.  If they claim a black and white, authoritarian, all or nothing way of thinking, I don't think they can be trusted.

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Guest se7en

my only belief in prophecy of any sort is that man is destined to eventually destroy himself.

current events only make that more clear.

the most powerful military in the world and not a single fighter jet in the air until an hour after the pentagon is hit? THE PENTAGON?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this scenario is absurd, it is rediculous that any American would believe that 2 jets could be piloted into the world trade center within 15 minutes of each other, then a third, 45 minutes later into the pentagon, then a fourth a little while later crashed to the ground without a single fighter jet in the air. this does not and cannot happen in this country, with it's redundancy of intelligence and it's over-ready and over-willing military. it just could not have happened unless it was done by us, by someone who had access to somehow get somebody to look the other way, by someone with the power to keep it's planning secret, by somebody so deep that they may not even exist. it could be as simple as a computer model and a control program. they tried to make it sound like we got attacked because we were soft, when in actuallity, they are trying to make us softer by telling us that. they want us to depend on them for safety and security and then they'll slowly take that away in the guise that it's being taken by the "terrorists." one day, they'll realize, there's a reason no one in the past ever got to the point of world dominance, somewhere, somebody will fight, somebody will have just enough umph to get the job done right and it will be messy, really messy. there isn't a whole lot we can do anymore, we put them there and they have now become sort-of self-aware, absolute power has corrupted absolutely. sometimes i wish there was a god, then maybe judgement day would be real and just maybe it would come in our time, but there isn't and it isn't and it won't. we will be slowly oppressed for the next few hundred years and when that is over, maybe we'll have learned our lesson, or maybe we will no longer have the burden of thinking. open your eyes now, do something.

murrah building, okc, 2 seperate shock waves heard and seen on seizmographic equipment

mcveigh seen with at least one other man during the time just before the blast, not terry whatshisname

the fact that 4,800 lbs of fertilizer could not bring down over 1/4 of the entire building, especially that high-up into the structure, especially when the explosion was not directed toward the building in any way

the fact that ATF persons were seen immediately afterward removing explosive devices that didn't discharge through the rear of the building

the fact that mcveigh got the death penalty from an act commited in 95 when the death penalty was added to law in 96

the fact that the world trade center buildings are the ONLY buildings in history to have supposedly collapsed in an implosive way from heat supposedly cuasing the main structural beams to buckle

the fact that tower seven collapsed the same way even though there was no fire in it and no jet fuel and no crash of any sort

the fact that no wreckage of any kind was found inside the pentagon

the fact that only the outermost section of the pentagon was damaged

the fact that even though it was reported that the plane hit the ground before hitting the pentagon, photos and video show without a doubt that the ground just in front and leading to the area of the building that was damaged, was not damaged at all

the fact that the hole made in the pentagon was not large enough to fit a plane, even in pieces

question these things as you wonder why we are taking out saddam hussein and destroying afganistan. why we are so dang worried about n korea having nukes, why we have new enemies popping up all over the world. just curious, anyone see bush wearing a blue turbin recently? me neither, just thought i'd throw that out there.

........i'm almost afraid to ask where you get/got your information from,because your theories are based on zero-proof/evidence and common sense.   if you truly beleive what you say,then that's fine,nothing i say,or independent-(meaning no idiotic-right or -limpy-liberal)- accounts will sway you.    ......were you AT OK-95/bombing??   were you AT the falling of the towers on 9/11?    ............i didn't think so. so what are your sources? can you name them?   are they journalists,oliver stone employees or callers from the Art Bell radio show?    

          ...and for those who "may" think that an admin/mod is picking on a member's views i say BULL. he threw it out there and i'm challenging and questioning it.  "IF" this turns into a sceaming/"personal" attack match THEN i will close this thread.

(BTW:just one correcting of your NUMEROUS outrageous-fairy-tale claims: at the time the pentagon was attacked the "majority" of all flying military craft on the eastern seaboard were either scrambled towards NYC-(ya know,to protect the airports and little things like that),already there/flying perimter or were on thier way there.     ...and it did not take an hour before any military aircraft were scrambled for the pentagon/white house;they were already there minutes after the pentagon was hit,forming a perimeter virtually surrounding the entire governnmental complex.-(gosh golly there is even radar footage of this fact shown during the first week of coverage on both the CBC in canada and ABC,among others i'm sure.)      ......i can easily name my many sources.)

                                    ~se7en :ouro:

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Guest fledgling666

http://www.mathaba.net/news/news2/index.shtml

http://www.911timeline.net/

http://911research.wtc7.net/index.html

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pen.../erreurs_en.htm

http://www.thenewamerican.com/focus/okc/

http://www.okcbombing.org/

now, i fully understand that there is a LOT of unverified accounts associated with many of the articles written in the above urls, but for the most part, they represent a large and growing section of the public that is both disturbed by the events of the 2 seperate incedents and questioning the reports given by media outlets pertaining to the 2 incedents. to clarify something, i want to say that i do NOT whole-heartedly believe these conspiracy reports in their entirety, nor do i believe the common media in it's reporting on these events, but i do have a healthy level of distrust of our government, those possibly in power behind our government, our media aparatus and any massive money-maker. in my humble opinion, these things need to be formally investigated by an unbiased group of regular people. all that was meant by my seemingly inappropriate post was that there are many more possibilities than what you're used to hearing as to what happened those 2 days and that these questions need to be asked. keep in mind that even though many of the reports on these links are unverified by the larger media, they do, in some instances, contain eye-witness accounts, phone ledgers, traffic stops, police statements, and even, in a few, statements made by local media outlets immediatley after each of the 2 incedents occurred. these seem to be untainted sources and could likely tell the most true and objective story of any of the major media outlets. not only that, siezmographic equipment does not often lie, neither do photographs, though they can easily be altered.

here's the thing, i used to take these things as everyday news, then i got married, settled down, loosened up, etc. now, after not delving into the world of the possibility that the governement is lying to me for a couple of years, i got back into it and this is what i found, that the government is probably lying to me more now than it was before and that i was doing exactly what they wanted me to, i was believing them and i was going about my daily life the way it should be (in their opinion), in blissful ignorance. see, i don't think most of what goes on beneath the white pillars will affect us for the most part, but does that mean we should let it continue? we are the thing that gives those individuals it's power and it's credibility, if we take that away, we will have won and we can again claim that "we, the people...." run this country, but for now, we can only watch..... wait........ worry...... and some will care and some will not...........

and the rest will write-off those that do watch and wait and worry, as nuts. well, that's ok, i've been outcast for the most part for my beliefs all my life, what do i care?

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