Joe Dreaming Of Meaning

[HighPlainsDrifter]

First off i know this has been discussed before but i have never made any responses till now. After rewatching again there are things still not clear to me and other things i think i had figured out.

THis episode is defintely a follow-up to Antipas. Ok this is what i think is going on, Jordans friend is the spirit of the actual Lucas Simon. The other Lucas is the human form but with a evil spirit (thanks to Lucy).

The dad is a child serial killer and takes the eyes as trophies. Is this correct?

Why does Jordan see Will Sanderson as evil and Frank doesnt?

What was that creature in the furnace? A Demon being born in Hellfire?

Anyone can explain this epi better please do so.

[Raven Wolf]

I second that.

I've been "Dreaming" of an explanation to much of what you've just stated for quite a while! Pitty...the title seems to hold such promise.

[Guest SeanDubh]

I don't really get the impression the father was actually evil. He never actually does anything to indicate that he's anything but a caring adoptive father; why else would he sacrifice himself to try to save his son? And it doesn't seem to me that any incarnation of Legion would be interested in just teaming up with a serial killer, especially when you consider the Lucy Butler connection, whatever it is. I don't really think Lucas was actually Lucy, but certainly cut from the same cloth, more so than any incarnation we've seen. Lucas seems to exist to use the unconditional love parents have for their children to destroy them, to corrupt that which is so sacred. Sanderson never believed that Lucas could be evil, all the way up to the end. It's this faith this demon exploits. Simon, the imaginary friend, was another form of this demon, who misled Jordan and influenced her visions, to screw with Frank in a similar fashion, to make it appear to everyone that it was Frank who was blinded by love to the disturbing implications of what were believed to be his daughters actions. Demons tempt frank, because he's too strong to be influenced by them. With Jordan it was easy, as she is too naive to realize that 'sometimes when someone says they're your friend they actually aren't', or whatever it was that Frank told Jordan about Simon. Just like Lucy Butler, Lucas/Simon were less about murder and chaos then about the exploitation and destruction of love, innocence, and all that is good and pure in the world. With a child serial killer what is their to corrupt? And then right there at the end you see Lucas in a car, with another trusting couple. It never ends.

Maybe Lucas has some connection to Lucy's child, the one she was suspected of murdering? Why would Lucy have a child to begin with, and why would she have killed it if there wasn't some purpose? If the child wasn't also a demon, think of all the 'Room With No View' and 'Antipas' kind of stuff she could have pulled on it if she had let it live and raise it on her own.

Perhaps the child had to be killed so it could join it's mother in demondom? I don't know, just my take.

[Guest SeanDubh]

Oh, and that bit about letting Jordan die to spare her from the destiny her gift would lead her to? Legion fears the person Jordan will grow up to be as much as they do Frank, maybe more. I'd say that Lucas is destined to be Jordan's Lucy Butler, but I'd imagine his chosen form will always be that of a child... Hmm.

[Guest Sheree Dawn]

Oh, and that bit about letting Jordan die to spare her from the destiny her gift would lead her to? Legion fears the person Jordan will grow up to be as much as they do Frank, maybe more. I'd say that Lucas is destined to be Jordan's Lucy Butler, but I'd imagine his chosen form will always be that of a child... Hmm.

I've always felt Jordan's gift would surpass that of her Father's.

And every hero has a nemesis. Pick your show and you can pick them out clearly

[BillQS]

I have as many questions as all of you, but my gut reaction is that Lucas is Lucy in another form... not just a minion. It looks like Lucy murdered the pregnant mother and assumed the form of Lucas... not sure how, but as Frank always says, the correct question is why?

I agree with the above poster who said the dad was not evil. If you remember Simon/Lucy caused the face of the doctor examining Jordan to assume demon features and there is no indication he is evil. The story shows that while both Frank and Jordan have the gift, the gift alone will not always guide you. Frank has had 50 years to hone the gift and to be able to tell when someone or entity tries to manipulate it. Jordan, while I agree may well be one day more powerful than Frank, is still too new and hasn't learned to question EVERYTHING as Frank has. Even trusting everything the gift shows you can lead you astray.

The collection of eyeballs is certainly interesting. Maybe that odd collection of "antiques" is what opened the door for Lucy as Lucas to be placed with them.

The whole intent was to show Frank that Lucy could be a threat to Jordan, but as Frank states her main goal seems to be fear which Frank will not let her overtly see.

I really agree with the poster on the Antipas thread that Frank is too strong to be influenced by demons, they have to tempt him, or attempt to get him to conform out of fear for his daughter's safety.

[Guest RodimusBen]

The collection of eyeballs is certainly interesting. Maybe that odd collection of "antiques" is what opened the door for Lucy as Lucas to be placed with them.

While a literal explanation for the eyes remains elusive, I think from a storytelling standpoint that they were meant as a metaphor for the many kinds of "sight" and references to sight that exist in this episode.

Frank "sees" things differently (as Sammael states in PPTD, he has a "unique perspective"), as does Jordan. While they both have a gift, this episode is clear in establishing that they don't have the same gift, as Frank cannot see the evil that Jordan does through the first 3/4 of the episode. Then there is the fact that Lucas tries to distort what Jordan sees, casting the image of evil first onto the father. There is even a "sight" gag in the episode when it shows the perspective of the father having to listen to the obnoxious "community welcome woman."

Perception is key in this episode. Jordan can perceive what even Frank does not, in this instance but she doesn't want to share her perception. Lucas' parents have an inaccurate perception of their son and of Jordan based on her actions. The eye exam scene echoes both the glass eyes and the scrutiny of Jordan's perception. The catharsis of the episode takes place when, finally, Frank and Jordan DO see the same thing outside of the burning house. Later, this exchange:

HOLLIS: What did you see in that window before the house exploded? What did you and Jordan see?

FRANK: I'm not sure.

HOLLIS: That's such – a lie. And I am so tired of stumbling through this with you, not seeing, not knowing, not anything. I didn't get into this to be a delivery boy, even for you.

FRANK: Emma. I see what I'm allowed to see. Just like everyone else. I didn't see anything. Neither did Jordan.

HOLLIS: Not clearly. Not this time. But she will.

FRANK: And if she doesn't?

I believe the last line is a cautionary note Frank makes to himself. He knows at this point that he cannot prevent Jordan's involvement in the battle between good and evil. His fear, then, is what will happen if she doesn't learn to listen to and trust her gift-- what kind of danger will it put her in?

I've given this a lot of thought as this is one of my favorite episodes. Ever since I saw the eyeball on the cover of the S3 DVDs I couldn't wait to see where it was used.

Edited March 2, 2009 by RodimusBen

[Guest evil]

? And it doesn't seem to me that any incarnation of Legion would be interested in just teaming up with a serial killer, especially when you consider the Lucy Butler connection,

my friend, have you ever watched the first season? LOL! most of that season was evil teaming up with serial killers. "The Judge" that's where it's most evident. If you ever read the book "Legion" by Willaim Peter Blatty, demons admire

the craftiwork of some serial killers and find it helpful to use them for their fight for evil dominance. I always felt a big part of the series is about evil trying to take control and by any means. I ought to know........muhahahahaha