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Lucy= Lillith?

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Adam and Lilith never found peace together; for when he wished to lie with her, she took offence at the recumbent posture he demanded. 'Why must I lie beneath you?' she asked. 'I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal.'

Thank you it's nice to be appreciated!

My only ardent botheration regarding the linking of Lucy to the paradigm of Lillith is that Carter simply didn't work that way. His 'concept' of the metaphysical was fairly orthodox and drew its afflatus almost exclusively from the Christian Bible. Whilst he was extremely creative in utilizing what is to be found in Christian Theology he didn't dwell in Mesopotamian, Sumerian or Gnostic mythology nor did he draw his source material from the Talmud or the Kabbalah all of which present the characteristics we perceive to be Lillth-esque in Lucy. Her name, almost blatantly, suggests she was conceived in accordance with Christian legends regarding Lucifer, Lucy Butler being a literal transposition of 'Light Bearer' or 'Lucifer' in Latin and interestingly Mel Gibson chose also to depict Satan/Lucifer as the divine androgyne (or Rebis if you're inclined to study) in the Passion of the Christ, the androgynous nature of Lucy is a common component of Luciferian theology as well as the Lillith myth. As I have asserted, with much surprise that it wasn't challenged, the personification of Lucy is not that original. Bette Davis, Tallulah Bankhead and Louise Brooks all portrayed roles that looked and acted like Butler 50 years before Carter conceived of her and its highly unlikely any of the roles used occult forethought as their inspiration.

I believe that any perceived correlations between Lucy and Lillith are simply because those traits are present in every personification of the dark-feminine since such a concept was first conceived. Spider Woman, Lucy Butler, Mrs. Mott, the Wicked Queen, Lillith, Hedra "Hedy" Carlson and on and on all share the same motifs of sexual manipulation, male repression, incarceration, pregnancy and much more besides yet it is incredulous to suggest they all searched the Talmud for inspiration.

Thanks for your input and I hope my reply doesn't read like a hard-headed occult loon,

Smiles as always,




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Guest Sheree Dawn

It could be as simple as being a play on words.

Think of the most evil being (if you are coming from a christian perspective) and you think of the devil. The devil = Lucifer. Women are the downfal of man, dating back to the eating of the apple (yeah, man was weak and succumbed to the temptation presented to him by Eve).

Lucy is just the most prominant name and more interesting in script than trying to play out the same plot with a male character. It just wouldn't have been as good.

Lucy is to Frank as Nicole Wallace is to Det. Bobby Goren of Law & Order Criminal Intent.

Every man must have a female nemesis.

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  • 5 months later...
Guest paranoid eyes

Interesting discussion.

There is a form of exorcism performed between 1500-1200 b.c. which was supposed to chaise away lilitu, lilu demons and it contained the words " And tied up at the back of the house they are causing the house to lose it's senses. They are changing his mind, they are ripping out his kidneys, pressing one against the other". More or less that is what happened in Lamentation. A similar "meaty" metaphor can be found in the biblical book of Lamentations: " He drew his bow and made me the target for his arrows. He pierced my kidney with arrows from his quiver (Lamentation III 12).

( If anyone has different translations they are welcomed to post).

But I agree that most of those connections were probably not intentional, at least not from the start, when the writers decided to put Lucy Butler into the show. A female character was needed due to the storyline, at first she was married to a serial killer, plus a women villan brought something new to Millennium. The popularity of this episode, the actress and her character is probalby the main reason, why they brought her back and made her more seductive, not so obviously creepy.

Plus, there were so many things written on Lilith as well as other female-demons, such as Lamias, Empuzas, there associations with the night, promiscuous sex, death of children and thier ability to transform into animals, that it's really hard to find an image of a wicked women which does not derive from this tradition. Just take a look on how modern vampires are represented.

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  • 1 month later...
Guest Benocles

paranoid eyes,

For your amusement, here's the full (and what I consider the most pure translation; NRSV) of Lamentations 3. Enjoy...

I am one who has seen affliction

under the rod of God's * wrath;

2he has driven and brought me

into darkness without any light;

3against me alone he turns his hand,

again and again, all day long.

4He has made my flesh and my skin waste away,

and broken my bones;

5he has besieged and enveloped me

with bitterness and tribulation;

6he has made me sit in darkness

like the dead of long ago.

7He has walled me about so that I cannot escape;

he has put heavy chains on me;

8though I call and cry for help,

he shuts out my prayer;

9he has blocked my ways with hewn stones,

he has made my paths crooked.

10He is a bear lying in wait for me,

a lion in hiding;

11he led me off my way and tore me to pieces;

he has made me desolate;

12he bent his bow and set me

as a mark for his arrow.

13He shot into my vitals

the arrows of his quiver;

14I have become the laughing-stock of all my people,

the object of their taunt-songs all day long.

15He has filled me with bitterness,

he has glutted me with wormwood.

16He has made my teeth grind on gravel,

and made me cower in ashes;

17my soul is bereft of peace;

I have forgotten what happiness is;

18so I say, 'Gone is my glory,

and all that I had hoped for from the Lord.'

19The thought of my affliction and my homelessness

is wormwood and gall!

20My soul continually thinks of it

and is bowed down within me.

21But this I call to mind,

and therefore I have hope:

22The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases,*

his mercies never come to an end;

23they are new every morning;

great is your faithfulness.

24'The Lord is my portion,' says my soul,

'therefore I will hope in him.'

25The Lord is good to those who wait for him,

to the soul that seeks him.

26It is good that one should wait quietly

for the salvation of the Lord.

27It is good for one to bear

the yoke in youth,

28to sit alone in silence

when the Lord has imposed it,

29to put one's mouth to the dust

(there may yet be hope),

30to give one's cheek to the smiter,

and be filled with insults.

31For the Lord will not

reject for ever.

32Although he causes grief, he will have compassion

according to the abundance of his steadfast love;

33for he does not willingly afflict

or grieve anyone.

34When all the prisoners of the land

are crushed under foot,

35when human rights are perverted

in the presence of the Most High,

36when one's case is subverted

—does the Lord not see it?

37Who can command and have it done,

if the Lord has not ordained it?

38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High

that good and bad come?

39Why should any who draw breath complain

about the punishment of their sins?

40Let us test and examine our ways,

and return to the Lord.

41Let us lift up our hearts as well as our hands

to God in heaven.

42We have transgressed and rebelled,

and you have not forgiven.

43You have wrapped yourself with anger and pursued us,

killing without pity;

44you have wrapped yourself with a cloud

so that no prayer can pass through.

45You have made us filth and rubbish

among the peoples.

46All our enemies

have opened their mouths against us;

47panic and pitfall have come upon us,

devastation and destruction.

48My eyes flow with rivers of tears

because of the destruction of my people.

49My eyes will flow without ceasing,

without respite,

50until the Lord from heaven

looks down and sees.

51My eyes cause me grief

at the fate of all the young women in my city.

52Those who were my enemies without cause

have hunted me like a bird;

53they flung me alive into a pit

and hurled stones on me;

54water closed over my head;

I said, 'I am lost.'

55I called on your name, O Lord,

from the depths of the pit;

56you heard my plea, 'Do not close your ear

to my cry for help, but give me relief!'

57You came near when I called on you;

you said, 'Do not fear!'

58You have taken up my cause, O Lord,

you have redeemed my life.

59You have seen the wrong done to me, O Lord;

judge my cause.

60You have seen all their malice,

all their plots against me.

61You have heard their taunts, O Lord,

all their plots against me.

62The whispers and murmurs of my assailants

are against me all day long.

63Whether they sit or rise—see,

I am the object of their taunt-songs.

64Pay them back for their deeds, O Lord,

according to the work of their hands!

65Give them anguish of heart;

your curse be on them!

66Pursue them in anger and destroy them

from under the Lord's heavens.

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  • 2 months later...

I'm with some others here. I don't think Lucy was meant to be Lillith in Lamentation though she was meant to be evil. I think the writers drew more on the succubus myth for Lucy's subsequent appearances.

As for Lucy's brief appearance in Saturn Dreaming of Mercury, Lucy assumed the form of Lucas (name similarity anyone?) to follow through on a promise to Frank at the end of Antipas- to make him fear her in the only way she could get to him, through Jordan.

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