Lucy= Lillith?

[ethsnafu]

Adam and Lilith never found peace together; for when he wished to lie with her, she took offence at the recumbent posture he demanded. 'Why must I lie beneath you?' she asked. 'I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal.'

Thank you it's nice to be appreciated!

My only ardent botheration regarding the linking of Lucy to the paradigm of Lillith is that Carter simply didn't work that way. His 'concept' of the metaphysical was fairly orthodox and drew its afflatus almost exclusively from the Christian Bible. Whilst he was extremely creative in utilizing what is to be found in Christian Theology he didn't dwell in Mesopotamian, Sumerian or Gnostic mythology nor did he draw his source material from the Talmud or the Kabbalah all of which present the characteristics we perceive to be Lillth-esque in Lucy. Her name, almost blatantly, suggests she was conceived in accordance with Christian legends regarding Lucifer, Lucy Butler being a literal transposition of 'Light Bearer' or 'Lucifer' in Latin and interestingly Mel Gibson chose also to depict Satan/Lucifer as the divine androgyne (or Rebis if you're inclined to study) in the Passion of the Christ, the androgynous nature of Lucy is a common component of Luciferian theology as well as the Lillith myth. As I have asserted, with much surprise that it wasn't challenged, the personification of Lucy is not that original. Bette Davis, Tallulah Bankhead and Louise Brooks all portrayed roles that looked and acted like Butler 50 years before Carter conceived of her and its highly unlikely any of the roles used occult forethought as their inspiration.

I believe that any perceived correlations between Lucy and Lillith are simply because those traits are present in every personification of the dark-feminine since such a concept was first conceived. Spider Woman, Lucy Butler, Mrs. Mott, the Wicked Queen, Lillith, Hedra "Hedy" Carlson and on and on all share the same motifs of sexual manipulation, male repression, incarceration, pregnancy and much more besides yet it is incredulous to suggest they all searched the Talmud for inspiration.

Thanks for your input and I hope my reply doesn't read like a hard-headed occult loon,

Smiles as always,

Eth

[Guest Sheree Dawn]

It could be as simple as being a play on words.

Think of the most evil being (if you are coming from a christian perspective) and you think of the devil. The devil = Lucifer. Women are the downfal of man, dating back to the eating of the apple (yeah, man was weak and succumbed to the temptation presented to him by Eve).

Lucy is just the most prominant name and more interesting in script than trying to play out the same plot with a male character. It just wouldn't have been as good.

Lucy is to Frank as Nicole Wallace is to Det. Bobby Goren of Law & Order Criminal Intent.

Every man must have a female nemesis.

[Guest paranoid eyes]

Interesting discussion.

There is a form of exorcism performed between 1500-1200 b.c. which was supposed to chaise away lilitu, lilu demons and it contained the words " And tied up at the back of the house they are causing the house to lose it's senses. They are changing his mind, they are ripping out his kidneys, pressing one against the other". More or less that is what happened in Lamentation. A similar "meaty" metaphor can be found in the biblical book of Lamentations: " He drew his bow and made me the target for his arrows. He pierced my kidney with arrows from his quiver (Lamentation III 12).

( If anyone has different translations they are welcomed to post).

But I agree that most of those connections were probably not intentional, at least not from the start, when the writers decided to put Lucy Butler into the show. A female character was needed due to the storyline, at first she was married to a serial killer, plus a women villan brought something new to Millennium. The popularity of this episode, the actress and her character is probalby the main reason, why they brought her back and made her more seductive, not so obviously creepy.

Plus, there were so many things written on Lilith as well as other female-demons, such as Lamias, Empuzas, there associations with the night, promiscuous sex, death of children and thier ability to transform into animals, that it's really hard to find an image of a wicked women which does not derive from this tradition. Just take a look on how modern vampires are represented.

[Guest Benocles]

paranoid eyes,

For your amusement, here's the full (and what I consider the most pure translation; NRSV) of Lamentations 3. Enjoy...

I am one who has seen affliction

under the rod of God's ^* wrath;

²he has driven and brought me

into darkness without any light;

³against me alone he turns his hand,

again and again, all day long.

⁴He has made my flesh and my skin waste away,

and broken my bones;

⁵he has besieged and enveloped me

with bitterness and tribulation;

⁶he has made me sit in darkness

like the dead of long ago.

⁷He has walled me about so that I cannot escape;

he has put heavy chains on me;

⁸though I call and cry for help,

he shuts out my prayer;

⁹he has blocked my ways with hewn stones,

he has made my paths crooked.

¹⁰He is a bear lying in wait for me,

a lion in hiding;

¹¹he led me off my way and tore me to pieces;

he has made me desolate;

¹²he bent his bow and set me

as a mark for his arrow.

¹³He shot into my vitals

the arrows of his quiver;

¹⁴I have become the laughing-stock of all my people,

the object of their taunt-songs all day long.

¹⁵He has filled me with bitterness,

he has glutted me with wormwood.

¹⁶He has made my teeth grind on gravel,

and made me cower in ashes;

¹⁷my soul is bereft of peace;

I have forgotten what happiness is;

¹⁸so I say, 'Gone is my glory,

and all that I had hoped for from the Lord.'

¹⁹The thought of my affliction and my homelessness

is wormwood and gall!

²⁰My soul continually thinks of it

and is bowed down within me.

²¹But this I call to mind,

and therefore I have hope:

²²The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases,^*

his mercies never come to an end;

²³they are new every morning;

great is your faithfulness.

²⁴'The Lord is my portion,' says my soul,

'therefore I will hope in him.'

²⁵The Lord is good to those who wait for him,

to the soul that seeks him.

²⁶It is good that one should wait quietly

for the salvation of the Lord.

²⁷It is good for one to bear

the yoke in youth,

²⁸to sit alone in silence

when the Lord has imposed it,

²⁹to put one's mouth to the dust

(there may yet be hope),

³⁰to give one's cheek to the smiter,

and be filled with insults.

³¹For the Lord will not

reject for ever.

³²Although he causes grief, he will have compassion

according to the abundance of his steadfast love;

³³for he does not willingly afflict

or grieve anyone.

³⁴When all the prisoners of the land

are crushed under foot,

³⁵when human rights are perverted

in the presence of the Most High,

³⁶when one's case is subverted

—does the Lord not see it?

³⁷Who can command and have it done,

if the Lord has not ordained it?

³⁸Is it not from the mouth of the Most High

that good and bad come?

³⁹Why should any who draw breath complain

about the punishment of their sins?

⁴⁰Let us test and examine our ways,

and return to the Lord.

⁴¹Let us lift up our hearts as well as our hands

to God in heaven.

⁴²We have transgressed and rebelled,

and you have not forgiven.

⁴³You have wrapped yourself with anger and pursued us,

killing without pity;

⁴⁴you have wrapped yourself with a cloud

so that no prayer can pass through.

⁴⁵You have made us filth and rubbish

among the peoples.

⁴⁶All our enemies

have opened their mouths against us;

⁴⁷panic and pitfall have come upon us,

devastation and destruction.

⁴⁸My eyes flow with rivers of tears

because of the destruction of my people.

⁴⁹My eyes will flow without ceasing,

without respite,

⁵⁰until the Lord from heaven

looks down and sees.

⁵¹My eyes cause me grief

at the fate of all the young women in my city.

⁵²Those who were my enemies without cause

have hunted me like a bird;

⁵³they flung me alive into a pit

and hurled stones on me;

⁵⁴water closed over my head;

I said, 'I am lost.'

⁵⁵I called on your name, O Lord,

from the depths of the pit;

⁵⁶you heard my plea, 'Do not close your ear

to my cry for help, but give me relief!'

⁵⁷You came near when I called on you;

you said, 'Do not fear!'

⁵⁸You have taken up my cause, O Lord,

you have redeemed my life.

⁵⁹You have seen the wrong done to me, O Lord;

judge my cause.

⁶⁰You have seen all their malice,

all their plots against me.

⁶¹You have heard their taunts, O Lord,

all their plots against me.

⁶²The whispers and murmurs of my assailants

are against me all day long.

⁶³Whether they sit or rise—see,

I am the object of their taunt-songs.

⁶⁴Pay them back for their deeds, O Lord,

according to the work of their hands!

⁶⁵Give them anguish of heart;

your curse be on them!

⁶⁶Pursue them in anger and destroy them

from under the Lord's heavens.

[BillQS]

I'm with some others here. I don't think Lucy was meant to be Lillith in Lamentation though she was meant to be evil. I think the writers drew more on the succubus myth for Lucy's subsequent appearances.

As for Lucy's brief appearance in Saturn Dreaming of Mercury, Lucy assumed the form of Lucas (name similarity anyone?) to follow through on a promise to Frank at the end of Antipas- to make him fear her in the only way she could get to him, through Jordan.