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The Mystery Of "the Jesus Papers"


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Guest gethsemane

I saw the show about the timeline of Jesus birth. Considering it wasn't being calculated until 500 years later it's hard to pinpoint a date. We do know when his death occurred. Ceasar Augustus started the calendar as we know it not because of Jesus, it just coincided with his birth. Give or take a few years. I believe this to be accurate. I really don't think 666 is significant unless your born with it on your head! LOL

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Hello all!

This looks like it could be a great thread! Thanks for all the contributions so far!

My last year since being turned onto it through this forum has been to start looking at Gnosticism, The Knights Templar, The "Magdalene Conspiracy", the life of Jesus and also peering into the dimness surrounding Freemasonry / Masonry. It's been a most amazing year.

Unlike most people I came late to "The Da Vinci Code" reading a lot of works on Gnosticism and things surrounding it before reading the Code. One of the main works that inspired the Code was The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail by Henry Lincoln, Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh. Michael Baigent is of course the author of the new book The Jesus Papers. My wife has ordered it for me as an Easter gift and I'm awaiting it's arrival.

The question of the crucifixion's authenticity and how it panned out is an amazing one. There a number of theories as to what happened including one which states that Christ was drugged while on the cross which gave him the appearance of being dead. Another is that it wasn't Christ at all on the cross but rather Simon the Cyrene. Another theory I have read about is that Jesus had a twin. Apparently the name Thomas didn't exist in Jesus' time. Thomas was a word meaning Twin. Thomas Didimus's last name means Twin also. As Henry Lincoln puts it, "So he was twin twin. But twin of who?"

The Cathars and the Templar Knights it is said repudiated Jesus who died on the cross. But, the did venerate Christ the son of Mary! So in the Languedoc area of France in Cathar territory you will often see crosses with the Virgin Mary holding a baby Jesus but not so much Christ crucified hanging on the cross. This is but one of the beliefs the Cathar's had that branded them as heretical by the Catholic Church and sparked off the Albegensian Crusade and the Inquisition.

I have read also that Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God, but rather this was a determination or appelation made by the Jewish High Court (the Sanhedrin) later picked up and established as truth by the Council of Nicea. Michael Baigent claims to have seen a document and held it in his hands (albeit it was in Aramaic - a language he can't read) that was a letter from Jesus himself (after his death by crucifixion) to the Sanhedrin denying that he had ever called himself the son of God.

There is of course a lot of thought surrounding Rennes-Le-Chateau and the rather unusual redecorating of the church there by it's priest Berengere Sauniere. One of the 14 Stations of the Cross which all-inclusive depict the principle incidents of Christ's journey to Calvary - specifically Station XIV which traditionally shows Jesus laid in the Tomb - shows Jesus being carried in the dark of night in relation to the tomb. Jesus had to be laid in the tomb before nightfall and yet the scene shows a dark night sky with a moon riding high in it. As priest Sauniere would surely have known that Christ needed to be laid in the tomb before nightfall it has been interpreted that rather than a depiction of Jesus being carried into the tomb, this is in fact a depiction of him being carried out of the tomb after nightfall.

Put together with the idea that ...

(a) Christ was drugged while on the cross to give him the appearance of death

(b) Jesus bled when his side was pierced with the spear (although a dead body shouldn't)

© Christ was crucified on a hill and witnesses were kept quite a distance away so accurate accounts of what was seen would have been impossible

(d) Christ was taken down from the cross and placed in a tomb on the private property of Joseph of Arimthea

(e) Nicodemus brought during the night to the tomb large quantities of myrrh and aloes - spices with the medicinal use of stopping bleeding and neither was used in the embalming process

... the possibility emerges that Christ was drugged to attain the appearance of death, taken down from the cross, placed in the tomb where he was treated for his injuries and finally was removed from the tomb under the dark of night.

This possibility is further "supported" when one looks at the Gospel of Mark. In both the Latin and English versions Joseph of Arimethea asks Pilate to have Jesus' body. Pilate asks if Jesus is dead and is very surprised to hear he has died so fast. Pilate gives Joseph the body. But if you look at the original Greek text for the Gospel of Mark there is an interesting wording difference. Whereas in English and Latin the word for a dead body and a living body is the same: body, in Greek there are different words: ptoma is a corpse and soma is a living body. Joseph asks for Jesus' soma and Pilate agrees and says he can take away his ptoma.

The reason for this deception - if I understand it properly - it is suggested is that the Jewish Sadduccee priesthood (who wanted to be rid of Jesus who by lineage was a King of the Jews of Holy Blood but abided by Roman rules and laws and sided with Rome's taxation of the Jews ) wanted Pilate to do away with Jesus. But Pilate couldn't just do that because it would have gotten him in trouble with the Roman authorities if he killed a high profile Jew who was supporting the Roman policy. So a scheme was cooked up with the Joseph of Arimethea in which Jesus would undergo a staged crucifixion (a crucifiction if you like) and then be banished from the holy land and in so doing the Sadduccee would be appeased and Pilate could claim that he didn't kill Jesus if the Roman authorities came after him.

Interestingly enough the Koran actually states that Jesus did not die on the cross - "They did not crucify him..." I have not found this reference myself but I have read about it in a number of references.

For those with access to it see Maclean's magazine APR3, 2006 edition - pages 32 to 40 for an article on the book and an excerpt from The Jesus Papers: Exposing the Greatest Coverup In History or better yet, buy the book! :)

There's another possible long post with respect to the dates of his birth and death which again is potentially interesting but I'll leave that for another time.

Hope all are well, and I hope everyone had a good Easter whether you believe in the crucifxion or not, or large bunnies traversing the world spreading chocolatey goodness wherever they go!

Visit Maxx's Blog - The New Millennium: The Time is Now - for the newest ideas to come from the mind of Maxx Blackwell.

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"THE ANTICHRIST DOES NOT COME AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED. WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED, THE REIGN OF THE JUST BEGINS; THEN COMES THE ANTICHRIST, TO CONFOUND THE JUST, AND THEN COMES THE FINAL BATTLE..."

- Alinardo of Grottaferrata, December 1323 (The Name of the Rose, Umberto Eco)

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Guest gethsemane

I have to give it to your sources. they can "what if" with the best of them. Needless to say I disagree with you(them). First, the gospels in the Bible were all substantiated by Biblical scholars. If they're not in the Bible they couldn't be proved. Just a few clarifications. Jesus did very much claim to be the Son of God. He was asked by the Sanhedrin if he was "Are you the Christ, the son of the Blessed One?" Mark 14:61 He replied" I am". Just one instance. Of course he was sentenced to death for blasphemy. Jesus' side bled because he wasn't dead when the soldier pierced it. It took about 3 days for a person to die on a cross so the soldier pierced his side to speed up his death. That is why Pilate was surprised he was dead. He thought it would take longer. The Centurion exclaimed" Surely he was the Son of God" when Jesus died because of the earthquake, darkness and the tearing of the temple curtain at the time of his death. Joseph was well respected so Pilate let him give Jesus a proper burial. The myrhh and aloes were to annoint his body. The process of preparing a body for burial was considered a womans job ,thus Mary, Mary ,and Salome had to wait until after the Sabbatth to do it. Jesus made many references to being ressurected. I know I didn't address all your points but I just have to say this. You either believe or you don't. Many people will have different theories about this but if you believe the Bible you know it's not negotiable. All the good deeds in the world won't get anyone in Heaven unless you have Faith. And isn't that our ultimate goal? I know this won't be a popular stand with this group but I'll stand up for Jesus anyday.

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Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___
I have to give it to your sources. they can "what if" with the best of them. Needless to say I disagree with you(them). First, the gospels in the Bible were all substantiated by Biblical scholars. If they're not in the Bible they couldn't be proved. Just a few clarifications. Jesus did very much claim to be the Son of God. He was asked by the Sanhedrin if he was "Are you the Christ, the son of the Blessed One?" Mark 14:61 He replied" I am". Just one instance. Of course he was sentenced to death for blasphemy. Jesus' side bled because he wasn't dead when the soldier pierced it. It took about 3 days for a person to die on a cross so the soldier pierced his side to speed up his death. That is why Pilate was surprised he was dead. He thought it would take longer. The Centurion exclaimed" Surely he was the Son of God" when Jesus died because of the earthquake, darkness and the tearing of the temple curtain at the time of his death. Joseph was well respected so Pilate let him give Jesus a proper burial. The myrhh and aloes were to annoint his body. The process of preparing a body for burial was considered a womans job ,thus Mary, Mary ,and Salome had to wait until after the Sabbatth to do it. Jesus made many references to being ressurected. I know I didn't address all your points but I just have to say this. You either believe or you don't. Many people will have different theories about this but if you believe the Bible you know it's not negotiable. All the good deeds in the world won't get anyone in Heaven unless you have Faith. And isn't that our ultimate goal? I know this won't be a popular stand with this group but I'll stand up for Jesus anyday.

Ah, Gethsemane, you are also indeed another person after my own heart :yes: And, of course I agree with you based upon the same reasons. But, in discussions like this (as I think I mentioned earlier in this thread or a similar one) I find it fascinating to 'suspend disbelief' as you will where these nifty little theories and parallel realities come in, just because it is fun to see what some of these people come up with. They can be very entertaining if you again don't take them too seriously. Those are some really intricate and interesting observations (you may call them 'facts') that you mentioned Maxx; obviously these people have taken some serious interest and have done some extensive research into these things. But, if you examine many of these statements and claims, you will find at least some of them are based upon semi-spurious assumptions and premises. Some are quite good points; some are definitely not. Such as mentioned here by Gethsemane, and the Bible clearly bears this out, that Jesus did indeed claim to be The Son of God a number of times. In addition to that he stated numerous times that his Father sent him and that he did his Father's will NOT his will, etc., etc.

First, the bald statement that the name 'Thomas' did not exist in that day is not true; however, I'm not sure, but I think the Bible does indeed refer to him as a 'twin' as you mentioned. Also, the spear likely pierced the sack from under the rib and next to his heart and thus as the Bible says 'Blood and water came out'. Also, Myrrh and spices were indeed used, not in embalming, but in the preperation for burial of wealthy dead people (that sounds kinda funny doesnt' it... :doh: Sorry : ) Remeber the fellow was a wealthy man and it was either he or another wealthy man who provided the particularly nice tomb where Jesus was buried. Also, historically and Biblically where Jesus was impaled (likely not crucified - Greek 'Stauros' or 'Xylon' meaning stake, pale, or tree, which was the custom at the time) others were indeed fairly nearby taunting him and conversing with him. The Bible states that the Apostle John and Jesus mother Mary were standing right in front of him when Jesus asked John to take care of his mother. And, you almost have it right about the Sadducees; they did not believe in the ressurection at all (that was quite a point of contention between themselves and the Pharisees) so, as you said, they were concerned about this and planned to have a couple of the soldiers guard Jesus' tomb so that his disciples couldn't come at night and steal his body and then SAY that he was ressurected. After the soldiers saw the stone miraculously rolled away and the angels appeared to them (according to the Bible) and they reported back to the Pharisees and Sadducees, THEN they did indeed scheme, as you said, but they schemed to spread a rumor that Jesus disciples DID take Jesus' body and that is why it was missing.

But, despite these differences Maxx, I still found some of the other things interesting regarding the artwork, the Crusades, and the quite interesting Greek words for body ('soma' and 'ptoma') Neat stuff! : )

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LOH - you have done a marvelous job in furthering a growing respect for yourself here at TIWWA. Not because you present an argument of which whose tenets i happen to agree with, but because you continue to express yourself so very eloquently. The scales of faith are not balanced in our favor. There are those who believe along such lines as yourself and those who will hold fast to a contradictory position. You either believe or you dont, there is no middle ground. Those who present an argument contrary to your established belief system, (and remember, an argument is a collective series of statements intended to establish a proposition), are doing so based on their own observations, on what they read or hear on a secular basis. Its very difficult to understand the Christian faith because its built on trust and hope of that which is unseen but understood.

As i have said before on this "Jesus Paper" issue, throughout history there have been assaults or attacks upon the fundamental aspects of not only Jesus's life but Christianity as a whole. Claims of deliberately omitted text, arguments over different translations, mere expostulations brought forth from the tree of discord, all of which over time has done nothing to lessen the importance of religion to those who believe.

This "sudden" finding of some supposed lost text that is to rewrite history as we know it reminds me of 2 Timothy 4:1-2

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" - 2 Tim 4:1

"Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" - 2 Tim 4:2

LOH - in closing, i have fully digested the occasional slings and arrows you throw my way and find them to be done in good taste without any malicious intent. When you first appeared on the board, i was reticent to welcome such issues with a sense of acceptance, (just ask The Old Man, LOL). But as i have come to know you vicariously thru TIWWA, i have to say, well done my friend, well done indeed!!! keep up the good, intelligent, articulate posts...

4th Horseman...

"And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him." REV 6:8

fourthhorsemananimatedsigna3rr.gif

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Thanks for the various responses since I posted my message. If you're wondering why I haven't posted a new reply - I got my copy from Amazon just this week and have been reading in between tasks. It's a great read and thought provoking.

Maxx

Visit Maxx's Blog - The New Millennium: The Time is Now - for the newest ideas to come from the mind of Maxx Blackwell.

gallery_1248_65_32681.jpg

"THE ANTICHRIST DOES NOT COME AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED. WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS HAVE PASSED, THE REIGN OF THE JUST BEGINS; THEN COMES THE ANTICHRIST, TO CONFOUND THE JUST, AND THEN COMES THE FINAL BATTLE..."

- Alinardo of Grottaferrata, December 1323 (The Name of the Rose, Umberto Eco)

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Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___
LOH - you have done a marvelous job in furthering a growing respect for yourself here at TIWWA. Not because you present an argument of which whose tenets i happen to agree with, but because you continue to express yourself so very eloquently. The scales of faith are not balanced in our favor. There are those who believe along such lines as yourself and those who will hold fast to a contradictory position. You either believe or you dont, there is no middle ground. Those who present an argument contrary to your established belief system, (and remember, an argument is a collective series of statements intended to establish a proposition), are doing so based on their own observations, on what they read or hear on a secular basis. Its very difficult to understand the Christian faith because its built on trust and hope of that which is unseen but understood.

As i have said before on this "Jesus Paper" issue, throughout history there have been assaults or attacks upon the fundamental aspects of not only Jesus's life but Christianity as a whole. Claims of deliberately omitted text, arguments over different translations, mere expostulations brought forth from the tree of discord, all of which over time has done nothing to lessen the importance of religion to those who believe.

This "sudden" finding of some supposed lost text that is to rewrite history as we know it reminds me of 2 Timothy 4:1-2

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" - 2 Tim 4:1

"Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" - 2 Tim 4:2

LOH - in closing, i have fully digested the occasional slings and arrows you throw my way and find them to be done in good taste without any malicious intent. When you first appeared on the board, i was reticent to welcome such issues with a sense of acceptance, (just ask The Old Man, LOL). But as i have come to know you vicariously thru TIWWA, i have to say, well done my friend, well done indeed!!! keep up the good, intelligent, articulate posts...

4th Horseman...

Well now..., that was indeed well worth waiting for...; now I can die happy... : )

Seriously though, that was very kind and gracious of you to say these things and I do appreciate them most sincerely, especially coming from you! It is apparent that you have a good knowledge of the Scriptures going by your use of them throughout your posts, and I respect that very much. What you say above is quite true; and as I have tried to convey in my comments prior that I understand when these type of things come along that a person even with a strong faith in the Bible should not take offense or be quick to decry or condemn them. With my faith and beliefs intact, I find these kind of things actually quite fascinating and entertaining. As I have mentioned in related posts and topics before, stories, movies, or books like these, whether for entertainment purposes (such as 'Stigmata' or many of the elements of MillenniuM's 2nd Season, etc.) or put forth seriously as in the case here, can be quite interesting and clever.

As you mentioned yourself, it is probably best not to get too terribly caught up in strong disscusions of belief and such here; however, this particular post does lend itself a bit more to these kind of things. Still, it is best I would think to try to keep to the 'facts' or at least to logical 'arguments' (meant in the strict sense of the word such as in mathematics - actually, I just now checked and see you have already defined it above, sorry : ) when comparing or dissecting these fascinating things.

As to your very respectful comments above regarding those who 'hold fast' to their beliefs along these lines, sadly, many who claim this although very well meaning and sincere usually cannot truly substantiate clearly to others the true basis and knowledge, if you will, to support this faith. Backing off from this a bit and focusing strictly on the Bible itself (since it is more closely related to the topic here) it's interesting how easily some may accept claims of inconsistencies and such and yet not much is said as to, say, the sanitation laws given to the Isrealites containing the proper handling of dead bodies and human waste FAR preceding sciences discovery of such by Mr. Pasteur and others by hundreds of years... How did they know...? And Job stating in 26:7 that the Earth hangs upon nothing when the rest of the world believed that it was resting upon giants and turtles and bears, oh my... : ) again FAR predating science's discovery of the very same fact. And, if you could see your way to tolerating just one more example, Isaiah's statement at 40:22 where he refers to the 'Circle of the Earth' using the original Hebrew word here that has a connotation of a 'Sphere', whereas science was yet to 'discover' this fact for several hundred years. How indeed did he know...???

Well, I think I've tested your patience quite enough : ) But, I will say, these are just a very few examples to demonstrate that although 'Trust' and 'Hope' are wonderful and necessary qualities, a person's 'faith' should indeed be based upon knowledge and facts and history and science, and these all should very much harmonize.

After all, if one goes from the premise that the Bible is indeed not only Divinely inspired but also has been Divinely and accurately preserved, then all these other things would obviously follow, would the not...?

Thank you again for your kind and thoughtful comments; I was beginning to wonder if I would live long enough actually to receive a comment from you... :bigsmile:

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