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The Judge


Guest MillenniumIsBliss

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss

This will probably draw some objection from many here, but I have always considered "The Judge" as the.... least great episode on the first disc of season 1. I say least great because it was still incredibly good, and when you consider just how good the first three were, anything short of perfection would have to be a step down. For some reason, it is still not one of my absolute favorites, but watching it last night, I kind of found myself thinking, "hmm, this is better than I remember". Marshall Bell was, of course, incredible as "The Judge", but I also forgot about Brian Markinson as Det. Teeple. Markinson holds a special place in my heart, because, not only has he been in 3 episodes of Millennium, 2 episodes of X-files, and a two parter on NYPD Blue, but two of his appearances, Folie A Deux on X-files, and Lost Isreal (2 part) on NYPD Blue were spectacularly acted, and I mean two of the best performances I have ever seen on either of these shows, or any others for that matter, not to mention three of the best hours of these two shows ever. His three appearances on MM were good as well, but they didn't give him a part he could really sink his teeth into. OK, back to "The Judge", yep, it was still one of the great ones. I would probably rate it about an 8.5, while I would probably give the first three closer to a 9.5. If I am not mistaken, this is the first episode where we are introduced to the word "Legion". For those actors/crew members who were offended by the gore and violence in "Dead Letters", they were treated to an even stronger dose in "The Judge", and informed loud and clear that nothing was going to change going forward. Another thing that struck me about the show is that, unless I am mistaken, Peter Watts was totally absent from this episode, and used sparingly early on in favor of Bletch. It's really a shame we didn't get to see more of Bletch, but maybe this was the plan all along. Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how the writing was done on this show? Did they write them one at a time, or write a few to start off with and then write new episodes as they went? I wonder if Smitrovich knew he was going to end up hanging in Franks' basement.

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Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___
For those actors/crew members who were offended by the gore and violence in "Dead Letters", they were treated to an even stronger dose in "The Judge", and informed loud and clear that nothing was going to change going forward.

STILL drawn to the blood and gore... :nope: Dude, I thought you were seeing someone about that :grin:

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
STILL drawn to the blood and gore... :nope: Dude, I thought you were seeing someone about that :grin:

Yes, I am indeed seeing someone about that. His name is Clive Barker!! LOL, where ya been buddy, we were just recently discussing that certain destinctive flavor you add to the board. :tasty::yes:

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Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___
Yes, I am indeed seeing someone about that. His name is Clive Barker!! LOL, where ya been buddy, we were just recently discussing that certain destinctive flavor you add to the board. :tasty::yes:

Clive Barker! :signlol: Good one!

Hmmm, that almost sounds like a compliment... But somehow the term 'distinctive flavor' evokes the thought of just stepping in something... :wtf: Yep, it's getting late all right; time to go to bed...

BTW, I remember that I really do like some of Clive Barker's stuff; didn't he do 'The Wishmaster'...? I kinda liked that. And, didn't he do 'Lord of Illusions'...? I REALLY liked that! Also the 'Hellraiser' stuff too, I guess. I think I liked 'Nightbreed' also.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Clive Barker! :signlol: Good one!

Hmmm, that almost sounds like a compliment... But somehow the term 'distinctive flavor' evokes the thought of just stepping in something... :wtf: Yep, it's getting late all right; time to go to bed...

BTW, I remember that I really do like some of Clive Barker's stuff; didn't he do 'The Wishmaster'...? I kinda liked that. And, didn't he do 'Lord of Illusions'...? I REALLY liked that! Also the 'Hellraiser' stuff too, I guess. I think I liked 'Nightbreed' also.

LOL, actually Raven Wolf was the one to make the first mention of this distinctive flavor that you add to the board. I forget what thread that was in. The closest I could come in trying to pinpoint it in comparison was oregano. :oneeyedwinK Yes, Clive has a pretty impressive resume. Believe it or not, I haven't really seen a lot of his stuff. I always found him TOO gory. I don't remember the movies that I spoke of that revealed my occasional craving for horror, but I have really kind of stuck with drama most of the time, with horror being kind of like an occasional side dish. I have rarely liked gore for the sake of gore, or overly excessive gore, and that would include Clive's work. I'm not someone who is overly opposed to gore, but as far as horror goes, the story and directing is more important to me. For example, I loved the first Halloween, but was not quite as thrilled with the first Friday the Thirteenth. Both had plenty of gore, although I think Friday the 13th had more, but Halloween had far more suspense, brilliant directing, better acting, really good characters that you cared about, oh and throw in a better soundtrack. The Hellraiser films, while I have to admit, they are brilliantly done for what they are trying to accomplish, have always been too overboard for me, so I have only seen the occasional clips and pics of them. I remember I was still pretty young and more sensitive about gore when the first Hellraiser came out, and just the sight of pinhead and the other creepy creatures gave me the heeby jeebies. In watching them very sparingly over the years, I can definitely see where people would label them as sick and be concerned about their kids watching them. We could probably talk for days about the effects that gory movies and video games have had on our youth. Some say virtually none, some say it leads to Columbine type events. I guess we will never know for sure.

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Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___
LOL, actually Raven Wolf was the one to make the first mention of this distinctive flavor that you add to the board. I forget what thread that was in. The closest I could come in trying to pinpoint it in comparison was oregano. :oneeyedwinK Yes, Clive has a pretty impressive resume. Believe it or not, I haven't really seen a lot of his stuff. I always found him TOO gory. I don't remember the movies that I spoke of that revealed my occasional craving for horror, but I have really kind of stuck with drama most of the time, with horror being kind of like an occasional side dish. I have rarely liked gore for the sake of gore, or overly excessive gore, and that would include Clive's work. I'm not someone who is overly opposed to gore, but as far as horror goes, the story and directing is more important to me. For example, I loved the first Halloween, but was not quite as thrilled with the first Friday the Thirteenth. Both had plenty of gore, although I think Friday the 13th had more, but Halloween had far more suspense, brilliant directing, better acting, really good characters that you cared about, oh and throw in a better soundtrack. The Hellraiser films, while I have to admit, they are brilliantly done for what they are trying to accomplish, have always been too overboard for me, so I have only seen the occasional clips and pics of them. I remember I was still pretty young and more sensitive about gore when the first Hellraiser came out, and just the sight of pinhead and the other creepy creatures gave me the heeby jeebies. In watching them very sparingly over the years, I can definitely see where people would label them as sick and be concerned about their kids watching them. We could probably talk for days about the effects that gory movies and video games have had on our youth. Some say virtually none, some say it leads to Columbine type events. I guess we will never know for sure.

'Oregano'...??? :wtf: Heh heh...

Well, BEAT ME SENSELESS!!! (metaphorically only, please) Dude, here I've made a career out of giving you a particularly hard time about you liking gore, and now THIS!!! :doh: Geez... Well, I guess I can pull my head outta the dark smelly place now... Sorry about that my friend (Damn, there goes a HELL of a lot of good material too... :yes: ) Great, now I feel like the Gore Hound!!! Talk about turning the bloody tables (litterally) Anyway, well, I guess it makes sense; I've mentioned before that real fantasiful Horror Gore (in other words REALLY unrealistic & Hollywood type stuff) doesn't bother me, but realistic violence like scenes where women are being tortured or people are being beaten really do. As a matter of fact it's interesting, because I remember your mentioning 'Saw' recently; dude, I got about 5 minutes into it and had to turn it off, especially when that chick just started slamming that knife into the guy to get to the key for her 'device'. Now, stuff like THAT I cannot take at all... FAR too realistic and cruel. But, some monster pulling his own head off or something is no big deal. Interesting how people react differently to things; and YES, I do agree that the issue of especially young people being influenced or at least very desensitized to human suffering is something worthy of discussion today.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
'Oregano'...??? :wtf: Heh heh...

Well, BEAT ME SENSELESS!!! (metaphorically only, please) Dude, here I've made a career out of giving you a particularly hard time about you liking gore, and now THIS!!! :doh: Geez... Well, I guess I can pull my head outta the dark smelly place now... Sorry about that my friend (Damn, there goes a HELL of a lot of good material too... :yes: ) Great, now I feel like the Gore Hound!!! Talk about turning the bloody tables (litterally) Anyway, well, I guess it makes sense; I've mentioned before that real fantasiful Horror Gore (in other words REALLY unrealistic & Hollywood type stuff) doesn't bother me, but realistic violence like scenes where women are being tortured or people are being beaten really do. As a matter of fact it's interesting, because I remember your mentioning 'Saw' recently; dude, I got about 5 minutes into it and had to turn it off, especially when that chick just started slamming that knife into the guy to get to the key for her 'device'. Now, stuff like THAT I cannot take at all... FAR too realistic and cruel. But, some monster pulling his own head off or something is no big deal. Interesting how people react differently to things; and YES, I do agree that the issue of especially young people being influenced or at least very desensitized to human suffering is something worthy of discussion today.

LOL, yes, very clever of me if I do say so myself. I threw Clive Barker out there as bait and got you hook line and sinker, talking about liking his stuff. Then, in a stroke of brilliance, I pulled the rug out from under you by condemning Clive's work as excessive gore, thereby making you look like a maniacal, blood lusting, gore obsessed fiend. :oneeyedwinK Heeheee, some of my most diabolical work yet. :w00t: However, I have confessed to liking some pretty gory stuff, such as the above mentioned "Saw", so you don't have to totally discard all of your comic material. Now that you mention it, "Saw" did have some pretty masterful use of gore and was not for the weak hearted. For some reason I just have the need to subject myself to that kind of material, but I usually kind of prefer my horror to be more psychological as opposed to gory. It seems that one good dose of something like "Saw" satisfies my craving for a long time, but next time I get the urge for gore, I think "Hostel" is next on my list. I know what you mean about seeing women beaten or tortured, that kind of thing really gets to me too. I think I recently mentioned a French movie that was recommended to me called "Irreversible", but if you have heard of that film or read the reviews, I am sure that you will pass on it, as I have. I am actually downright afraid to watch it because it sounds like I might be traumatized by it. I actually first ran across it while looking up the Miike movie you mentioned, "Ichy the Killer" or something like that. From what I have heard, foreign directors, especially Japanese, Italian and sometimes French, really go a lot further over the line than many American directors, and while I can't imagine them going much further than our own Clive Barker, I think the realism of their stuff is what really makes it disturbing, especially when it is being shown as a part of normal everyday existence, as opposed to people being attacked by alien creatures or something.

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Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___
LOL, yes, very clever of me if I do say so myself. I threw Clive Barker out there as bait and got you hook line and sinker, talking about liking his stuff. Then, in a stroke of brilliance, I pulled the rug out from under you by condemning Clive's work as excessive gore, thereby making you look like a maniacal, blood lusting, gore obsessed fiend. :oneeyedwinK Heeheee, some of my most diabolical work yet. :w00t: However, I have confessed to liking some pretty gory stuff, such as the above mentioned "Saw", so you don't have to totally discard all of your comic material. Now that you mention it, "Saw" did have some pretty masterful use of gore and was not for the weak hearted. For some reason I just have the need to subject myself to that kind of material, but I usually kind of prefer my horror to be more psychological as opposed to gory. It seems that one good dose of something like "Saw" satisfies my craving for a long time, but next time I get the urge for gore, I think "Hostel" is next on my list. I know what you mean about seeing women beaten or tortured, that kind of thing really gets to me too. I think I recently mentioned a French movie that was recommended to me called "Irreversible", but if you have heard of that film or read the reviews, I am sure that you will pass on it, as I have. I am actually downright afraid to watch it because it sounds like I might be traumatized by it. I actually first ran across it while looking up the Miike movie you mentioned, "Ichy the Killer" or something like that. From what I have heard, foreign directors, especially Japanese, Italian and sometimes French, really go a lot further over the line than many American directors, and while I can't imagine them going much further than our own Clive Barker, I think the realism of their stuff is what really makes it disturbing, especially when it is being shown as a part of normal everyday existence, as opposed to people being attacked by alien creatures or something.

Clever B@stard... Remind me to kick your @ss next time I see ya! :fuyou_2:

Ol' Clive usually just does the monster gore kinda stuff (with the exception of 'Candyman', which I did indeed walk out on after about 20 minutes; a little too nasty like 'Se7en' for my delicate tastes) Uh, I probably would NEVER go anywhere near anything Takashi Miike does, but his 'One Missed Call' was pretty good and completely tame compared to the mind numbing horrors that I've read about that he's done. I read VERY carefully about the film first and everyone said that it was REALLY tame and mainstream compared to his usual stuff, so I took chance and watched it with one eye closed. It was REALLY derivitive of all the Japanese horror films, but that's what he deliberately intended it to be. Very nice use of the camera, I must say; and I must sheepishly admit that a few of the Japanese schoolgirls (high school : ) made my heart practicaly stop all together :yes:

But, YES, I do completely agree with you that the VERY best kind of horror is PSYCHOLOGICAL, thus my total admiration for a film such as 'Session 9'! It doesn't get much more psychological than that. Even Stephen King stated in his non-fiction book 'Danse Macabre' that psychological horror was the highest form of horror.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Clever B@stard... Remind me to kick your @ss next time I see ya! :fuyou_2:

Ol' Clive usually just does the monster gore kinda stuff (with the exception of 'Candyman', which I did indeed walk out on after about 20 minutes; a little too nasty like 'Se7en' for my delicate tastes) Uh, I probably would NEVER go anywhere near anything Takashi Miike does, but his 'One Missed Call' was pretty good and completely tame compared to the mind numbing horrors that I've read about that he's done. I read VERY carefully about the film first and everyone said that it was REALLY tame and mainstream compared to his usual stuff, so I took chance and watched it with one eye closed. It was REALLY derivitive of all the Japanese horror films, but that's what he deliberately intended it to be. Very nice use of the camera, I must say; and I must sheepishly admit that a few of the Japanese schoolgirls (high school : ) made my heart practicaly stop all together :yes:

But, YES, I do completely agree with you that the VERY best kind of horror is PSYCHOLOGICAL, thus my total admiration for a film such as 'Session 9'! It doesn't get much more psychological than that. Even Stephen King stated in his non-fiction book 'Danse Macabre' that psychological horror was the highest form of horror.

Ok, "One Missed Call" was the one you mentioned. I have seen "Ichy The Killer" in Blockbuster, so I am guessing that this is another one that is pretty tame by comparison. So, as I read your posts, the truth starts to emerge, just give L@the some hard core gore, throw in a few Japanese schoolgirls and he's good to go. :oneeyedwinK I agree on Session 9, a true masterpiece and the horror surprise of the year for me a couple of years ago. I never even heard of it before I ran across it at Blockbuster, and it probably ended up being the best horror movie I saw that year.

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