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The Judge

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss

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Hi Watts,

There was thread in recent times that sought to explore the nature of Frank's association with the Group in the first season. There was a massive divide in consensus with some believing Frank's role to be explicitly peripheral and others believing that this peripheral status was a piece of retroactive continuity on the part of those who were showrunning the Second Season. My own view is that regardless of who decided that Frank should be considered outside the inner sanctum of the Millennium Group, Season Two's depiction of him as a neophyte occupying pre-initiation status does not detract from my appreciation of Season One. As you say - two many cooks - and whilst the change in dynamics and thematics that occurred with each Season heralded many positive changes for the series it did, without doubt, proffer up the odd negative. In times past fandom was occasionally zealous in defending or attacking certain aspects of the show and the choices the production teams made, I myself was once an ardent Season Two aficionado, but as time has past it seems that show is treated much more harmoniously and is finally viewed as one body of work with highs and lows spread throughout its entirety.

One of the finer, yet unplanned, aspects of the show to my mind is that the shift in thematics from season to season did create the odd ambiguity and contradiction and these incongruities have often been the precursors to some of the most creative and interesting discussions I have taken part in. Where there uncertainties there will always be polar opinions and theories and as far as fans are concerned there's nothing better than thrashing out a few speculative concepts. I absolute adore Lost and agree that the narrative is superb but as much as I love it there's nothing within that stimulates me half as much as Millennium does. In fact no show ever has :)

Best wishes,

Eth

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Guest WhiteWolf

Hi guys, haven't been around in a little while, I have a lot going on in summer months usually.

But it's nice to see that this thread and episode is still getting attention.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because it happens more often than I'd like to admit, but there really wasn't anything at all in any of the Lucy Butler episodes that was either mentioned or implied that linked Lucy to The Judge directly. There are the usual connections that fans have made, but nothing truly concrete. I'm not just trying to stir the pot or anything, but I just don't think that The Judge connection to that later mytharc has any legs. But I've stated that in this thread before, so maybe I'm just being redundant.

But I do like Eth's point about how the show shifted thematically from season to season, and unplanned but basically inevitable consequence of having so many creative people involved in the process of making the series at different points in the overall story. The people ivolved with the creation of the Lucy Butler mytharc might very well have never intended any of it to have anything to do with The Judge.

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*crawls out from under notes of Marx and Hegel* Oomph...

It would have made it easier if those cooks stirring the pots each season had a plot for each season... The first could have been either regarding the photo stalker, hence the season finale, or maybe Lucy in general. The second... maybe the decision on joining the Group... Don't know about the third, wasn't all too fond of it.

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While wayching "Gehenna" just now I realized this, proof from Franks own lips that he was a member of the Millennium Group-

ATKINS: I appreciate you confiding in me.

FRANK: You're the reason I was even able to come back to work, Mike. That I'm a member of the Group.

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I know where they say that in Gehenna. However, there is a process by which one becomes a member of the Group. Frank was a consultant. He says it Pilot with Bletch:

Bletch: "Why did he choose her?"

Frank: "I don't know yet. I'm working with a consulting group. These guys have a lot of experience with this sort of thing. They could take a look."

And

Bletch: "A couple of my detectives did. He told them he was part of something called The Millennium Group."

Frank: "Yeah."

Bletch: "Is that who you're doing this consulting for?"

Frank: "Mm-hmm."

Bletch: "So who are they?"

Frank: "Just some guys who used to work in law enforcement."

So, at that point he was still a consultant, maybe a candidate after proving himself worthy. There's a process a person has to go through to be a member:

1) Consultant

2) Candidate

3) Full Membership

Maybe if Frank had gone through said process, he might have become a Patron, or eventually held some other position. Frank, also at that time, didn't realize he wasn't getting all the information from the Group, as that only comes with full membership.

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Guest Laurent.

I've expressed myself about this before, but I just want to second what "Who am I?" just said. I think there is a clear hierarchy within group members (like the one Who suggested), because obviously Frank was not a full member like Watts. If he had been a real member, how would you explain all the secrecy and disinformation?

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Plus, if you remember in the Second Season, in Owls specifically, when Watts finds the Owls' logo on Frank's computer- when the modem line's been tapped...:

PETER

Your modem line's been tapped.For our safety, I can only make contact unannounced.

FRANK

Did you see her expression?! I should be calling the police.

Peter quickly points to the computer screen.

PETER

Why didn't you tell me about this?

PETER

Are you with them?

FRANK

"Them?" I don't even know if I'm with you, because I don't know who or what you really are.

PETER

I want to tell you. At this time, I need for you to know. There's an investigation I need your involvement with. Lara Means has agreed to join me, even though...(a beat)... the others disagree. It's not the time.

FRANK

NO! The time is now, Peter! NOW!

Frank stares demandingly. Peter stares back.

FRANK

This Group... Millennium... convinced me to return to a realm I never wanted to experience again for the safety of my family... my own sanity.(a beat) And yet, for those very same reasons, I agree to work with this group I believed was a criminal investigative consulting firm. I became devoted to this. I respected Millennium. I respected you. And even... came to respect myself.

FRANK (continuing)

But then, there's hints and intimations. Passwords and candidacies. Centuries old origins; end of the world prophecies. Secrets and lies...

PETER

I've never lied to you.

FRANK

Millennium knew the identity of the man who had stalked my wife. You knew that for years and never told me. THAT... is lie! You knew I would kill him! You knew it would take me from my family. The VERY REASON I joined you.

PETER

Don't get all righteous on me, Frank. YOU left your family. (a beat) But you didn't leave us.

Just more things to back the thought up. Specifically those lovely italicized sections...

Edit: Forgot one more.

PETER

In the last year of your candidacy this group has shown you a plane of good and evil

and prophetic direction that you have come to understand... and accept.

Frank can't deny it.

PETER

Past and future events we understand can only be known by a select few. In order to steer the world through the crisis that is inevitable.

Edited by Who Am I?
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Guest Jim McLean

Speaking on both topics, Legion and the Group..

Legion: As I've just said in a previous thread, I think fans have a tendency to create their own laws when assessing connections. I don't doubt that The Judge is meant to represent something greater than a human. He even tells Frank to expect his death.

JUDGE: Well, it's time to go. And remember, the offer's open. And if I'm hard to reach, well, don't make the conventional assumptions.

Based on the conversation, that the Judge - as Legion - is as much about controlling the souls who work for him as the work himself, this a clear narrative prediction of the Judge's fate. That even when he's gone, the offer still stands.

This is as much thematic as it is narrative; that Evil looks to tempt and control, as it did in Gehenna, the first episode to offer this question of pure Evil.

Where I think fans go wrong, is they correctly associate Lucy with The Judge so far as being connected in their arc, but then presume the laws of one neatly apply to the other. I don't think MM ever intended that sort of catagorising. Sure, as a viewer you could manage to tie them in. There is no reason to assume that Legion could have swapped bodies - that the body fed to the pigs was in fact Bardale - but that would be an assumption.

If you ask me, the Judge is Legion. He is a vestiage, a facet of Evil. There is no reason to presume that Evil has to obey a specific rule of thumb.

IMO the season one Legion arc is about pure Evil, not Legion. Legion is a fan dub, what the show intended to portray was pure Evil at work through people or directly controlling people. How that manifests wasn't intended to be specific. The Judge was Legion, Lucy is Evil. Clements was Evil, either directly or directly controlled - it doesn't matter. The arc of Legion for season one is about Evil, not about Legion as regards to the Judge. They are all part of the same inhuman force, but they are not directly meant to be the same character - THAT idea is a fan one. I don't believe season one intended that at all.

How the show moved the arc later on is a different story!

As for the Group:

Again, as has been said in other threads, it's all about retrospective analysis. Fact: Season One did not intend the MG to be a perverted cult with origins going back centuries. Fact: The MG is a perverted cult that had origins going back centuries.

We look - as season three did - to reconcile these ideas. Season one, Frank was a consultant - a member - for a FBI consultancy group. In real life consultancy groups don't have inner circles. You can be hired as a consultant and therefore be a member. Just like you can be hired by a firm and be a direct representative.

By season two, we see a new angle and we retrospectively adjust. I personally believe the shift in season two was watchful of what had been said in season one. Frank was still a consultant, we just learn that the consultancy position is peripheral - which makes sense, we don't see Frank meeting with the founders or going to meetings.. he could be peripheral and out of the "inner management circle", which in this case is a deep cult that goes far deeper than the law enforcement arm that Frank works for.

So it all works. It's just a matter of perspective!

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  • 4 months later...
IMO the season one Legion arc is about pure Evil, not Legion. Legion is a fan dub, what the show intended to portray was pure Evil at work through people or directly controlling people. How that manifests wasn't intended to be specific. The Judge was Legion, Lucy is Evil. Clements was Evil, either directly or directly controlled - it doesn't matter. The arc of Legion for season one is about Evil, not about Legion as regards to the Judge. They are all part of the same inhuman force, but they are not directly meant to be the same character - THAT idea is a fan one. I don't believe season one intended that at all.

I agree with almost everything you said in your quote. I think people go too far in thinking of Legion as a singular entity when, like you said, the overall arc of season 1 is the exploration of Evil both human, supernatural and supernaturally controlled.

However, two manifestations of Legion ARE the same in Season 1. It's apparent from the script in PPTD that Alister Pepper is the same manifestation as the Judge. That's as far as I think it goes.

You're also right about the group. Saying one is a consultant as proof someone is not a member doesn't make a lot of sense. It's a later fan construct to explain how the 3 seasons can be melded together for a coherent whole.

I had more to say, but I was just told I could go home early for MLKII Day weekend here in the States!

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