Matryoshka

[ethsnafu]

Gosh what a find! What a glittering bit amongst the magpies nest. I had never seen this post before, partly due to the fact that it was written when people still wore slacks, but it is so correct and I chide myself for never noticing the clear physiological nastiness on display in this episode. As rightly stated the risk of carcinoma to those exposed to the nuclear-excision-of-evil was beyond certainty but my greatest irk is with the notion that a man can expose himself to critical mass and live long enough to worry about developing a worrisome mole. Critical mass is essentially a nuclear explosion and whether or not this had lots of lovely prosthetic effects with devilish masks and flashing lights the reality would have our nuclear-adventurer flung forth across the wasteland like steak tartare. You can argue that such exposure would result in Leukemia, which, to be honest is the least likely carcinogenic outcome, or you can face the likelihood that Alexander's shade would be trying to retrieve his flambed eyeballs from South Korea. You can not invoke critical mass and sit there in your laboratory and live to tell the tale much less leave your wallpaper intact and much of the province around you. I honestly cannot understand why this story resorted to denying scientific constants to tell its story and yet so much of what we glare at with our 'cookies and milk' vomits in the face of established knowledge and hopes that we all possess the intelligence quotient of a small cactus.

This happens to be one of my favourite episodes of Season Three as so much of it wonderfully provocative, it contradicts, it argues and it stamps, all boot like, over the continuity previously established and provokes so much late night 'what the hell' that I applaud it for its brazenness and yet herein lies another example of truly questionable science..

Edited November 9, 2007 by ethsnafu

[Guest Jim McLean]

I don't think the science of the episodes (despite being about science) is really important. Especially when you are dealing with an episode that is much about the soul of man as it is science; there is a certain unknown quantity to the episode which allows you to suspend disbelief. If we accept the possibility that by splitting the part of his personality which man to assume such godlike power, then we're into a non "scientific" circumstance. Maybe - in an unscientific way - the scientist absorbed the radiation; that it was consumed inwards and into the very fissure in his own soul. Incredulous and unscientific, but if we take the Millennium fictional universe as priority over the fact its a TV show, then we know that the radiation didn't act as radiation does, and seems contained to the man who is holding the spheres. In this case, maybe the most rational answer is whatever he did to split his own soul, somehow contained or consumed the radiation generated by the spheres in one of those unexplained Millennium moments. Or maybe it was a real fluke of nature. Or maybe the agent was kept alive by a higher force to fulfill the obligation to the scientists daughter (in a long windy way).

I don't like looking at "mistakes" as by the shows nature, there are "mistakes", we either accept their notions as being part of their world, or we don't. Frank's gift has no referential notion in our world, we accept it in Millennium as a fact of their continuity. We accept the notions of very manifested demons. If we accept some "mistakes" in comparison to our world, we should accept there maybe other notions in Millennium's world which can explain what we couldn't explain. Even if it is a soul which consumes radiation, or a fluke, or a man being protected by a higher force, or even two spheres whose properties differ slightly from our universal laws.

I really liked this episode. I loved Bain's appearance and the whole thing was done with care, quality and intelligence. A little too X-Files maybe, but I think it all worked. I think the core message is more important than the silly facts, and as such this issue with the spheres didn't bother me whatsoever.

[ethsnafu]

A wonderful piece of natter my friend. I agree, for the most part, that the artistic decision to give radiation properties more metaphysical than its defined atomic interaction shouldn't matter jot in a universe composed of speculation and artistry and I guess it is who are that defines our ability to accept such playfulness. Were I an artistic soul I am sure and certain that I wouldn't spread much chutney on the theoretical expansion of the properties of radiation but tarnished by those laborious lectures on nuclear medicine many a moon ago my nit-picking-spider-sense affords me an over sensitivity that makes unfair demands.

I actually adore Matroyshka, it sits in my list of favourites on my profiles, and my sheer ebullience for this episodes rests not on any lofty cogitation the writers may have undertaken with their recipe of radiation and supernal wonderings but in this episodes crazed demolition of our comfy understanding of the Millennium Groups history.

I watched Matroyshka safely supported by the idea that the Group was an ancient body, heralding from two thousand years ago, brandishing its Ouroborous during the factious infighting of 1188 and nervously absorbing the chymical sciences and astronomies of the 1600's only to be roundhoused by the clear and concise depiction of J Edgar Hoover birthing the Group and its moniker in the wake of the Second World War. I remember an absolute tsunami-of-the-mind taking place for me.

It was maddening upon first viewing, I was aching to decide if I was witnessing the reboot, the re-invention or the very modern day nascency of the Millennium Group as I absorbed the scene of Director Hoover producing his sketch of the ouroborous in what appears to be its first use as the symbol of the Group. One more view, another and another and I can only settle upon the conclusion that Hoover is suggesting the ouroborous, for the first time, as the symbol for a group born au courant. I infer that what we witness could be little more than a change in the group's remit, an emergence from the quasi-philosophical roots of old to the shady conspirital executioners portrayed in Season Three but that is only my effort to satisfy the incongruities here. Whatever conclusions can be drawn apropos Hoover and his connection to the Millennium Group, he must, at least in 1945, have been of such standing that he was able to draw together the FBI and the ancient Millennium Group with a new modus operandi and suggest a symbol that would become universally accepted by the group itself.

Throughout Season Two it is suggested that the Millennium group has been in existence since the time of Christ. It is clear that James Wong wished to indicate this when he wrote, in reference to 'The Hand of Saint Sebastian', 'I felt that by revealing that the Millennium Group had existed for centuries and setting the episode overseas, that would give the story greater scope and weight." The Hand of Saint Sebastian may add further confusion to events when Peter Watts indicates that the very scenes intended to portray the Group's antiquity do, in fact, relate to the 'Knights Chroniclers'. He states that it is they who possessed the hand of Saint Sebastian though the fugitives depicted clearly display all the hallmarks of the Millennium Group complete with ouroborous and 'this is who we are' mantra. I suppose it is logical to conclude that the ouroborous, like many arcane symbols, would have featured throughout the group's history but was only officially adopted during the 1940's as its universally recognised cypher. This could explain how this and other symbols were found tattooed on the medieval group members without also contradicting the seemingly 'original idea' of Hoover.

All of this is my usual, unstructured ramble I know and far from being a criticism of this episode I warmly thank it for giving me much to mind-chew. As one who notes the history of the Millennium Group as his greatest fetish no other episode makes everything thus far established seems so kaleidoscopic.

It truly is one of my favourites.

Edited November 18, 2007 by ethsnafu

[Guest Jim McLean]

A wonderful piece of natter my friend. I agree, for the most part, that the artistic decision to give radiation properties more metaphysical than its defined atomic interaction shouldn't matter jot in a universe composed of speculation and artistry and I guess it is who are that defines our ability to accept such playfulness. Were I an artistic soul I am sure and certain that I wouldn't spread much chutney on the theoretical expansion of the properties of radiation but tarnished by those laborious lectures on nuclear medicine many a moon ago my nit-picking-spider-sense affords me an over sensitivity that makes unfair demands.

As with all fiction writing its the balance between making the incredible easy to swallow. All of Millennium is pretty incredible, its the skill in masquerading the non-realism in realistic attire. I can see why the nuclear issue would be a poorly dressed incredibility for some, but I like to think the fantastic and often mysterious nature of circumstance that creeps into the show gives a wide enough window to just take what we see as what happened, regardless of its accuracy.

I watched Matroyshka safely supported by the idea that the Group was an ancient body, heralding from two thousand years ago, brandishing its Ouroborous during the factious infighting of 1188 and nervously absorbing the chymical sciences and astronomies of the 1600's only to be roundhoused by the clear and concise depiction of J Edgar Hoover birthing the Group and its moniker in the wake of the Second World War. I remember an absolute tsunami-of-the-mind taking place for me.

I'm so glad you mentioned this, because this was the "mistake" I thought the thread alluded to. I have only watched season two once over (give or take) and was sudden that the ouroborus was on those of the group's early origins.

I think there are many ways to take this. Naturally, I don't believe in a fictional "retcon", but more that the show is trying to shift its own flavour. There's even that tongue in cheek line from Watts that the group pushed too much of onto Frank too early which comes across as a nod to the second season being too mythologically focused:

WATTS: He was my candidate. I recruited him at his time of need and the Group smothered him with angels and devils and Armageddon.

Which all distinctly tells me there is a shift in emphasis. I don't think its a denial of the group's roots, in fact, I'm not even sure it can be taken as fact that Hoover is not being manipulated by those in the position to do so. Could one read the scene as Hoover thinking he's found the perfect symbol, when in fact, all he's found is what the Group ideology wanted him to find? I can't imagine Hoover being so mythologically bound as say, Watts, so if one takes the legacy of Millennium to be true, its more likely he's being puppeted into bringing the legacy of the group into a more entrenched federal circles; that to be a power in the times it needs to be the power behind the thrones. He thinks he's creating something new, when in fact he's merely giving a more covert and secret group an official contemporary face.

I would love to hear more on what people think on this.

[ethsnafu]

The whole ouroborus situation is a cranium-screwing headache needing ibuprofen but I disagree, respectfully, with your pondering that Hoover accidentally happens upon a glyph that has been part of the Group's birthright for an age without realising it. If Hoover was in such a lofty position, one flavored by memories of the Old Man, that he can authoritatively change the raison d’être of the Group then he should possesses enough acumen to be conversant with the Group's history. The figure at the helm of an antiquated conglomerate should not be happening upon an aspect, by accident, that has been part of the Group's recipe for over two thousand years. Our history asserts that the Old Man was the luminary who gave heart to the Group and whilst it makes sense to posit that Hoover was skillfully guided into creating a federal keynote to the Group's previously theological mandate there is nothing depicted in the Old Man's mythos that would explain why he would allow Hoover to imagine he was birthing a cypher already in existence and usher the group into an era he blatantly has no interest in. He asserts that not a single member of the modern day incarnation of the Group has he not been custodian to, his bemoaning of the factious division between science and myth and his preoccupation with the theological intentness of the Roosters argues with the notion that he allowed Hoover to mold the matrix of the Group into a federal body whilst being clearly bereft of the theological history, and its symbolism, he so cherishes.

Of course I concur that it is welcoming to assume that Hoover is forging new strides forward, bereft of history, inspired by ignorance but our knowledge of the Group's history teaches us that its navigator would not have been implicit in such an ignorant folly.

I too welcome any ponderings on this paradox as the Millennium Group's history is of particular importance to me.

Boring though it may be to everyone else. May I also say it is a pleasure to read your posts Laredo and I seek them out daily. It is warming to know that this board still ruminates over Millennium's mysteries in such a wonderfully musical way.

Edited November 19, 2007 by ethsnafu

[Guest Jim McLean]

The whole ouroborus situation is a cranium-screwing headache needing ibuprofen but I disagree, respectfully, with your pondering that Hoover accidentally happens upon a glyph that has been part of the Group's birthright for an age without realising it. If Hoover was in such a lofty position, one flavored by memories of the Old Man, that he can authoritatively change the raison d’être of the Group then he should possesses enough acumen to be conversant with the Group's history. The figure at the helm of an antiquated conglomerate should not be happening upon an aspect, by accident, that has been part of the Group's recipe for over two thousand years. Our history asserts that the Old Man was the luminary who gave heart to the Group and whilst it makes sense to posit that Hoover was skillfully guided into creating a federal keynote to the Group's previously theological mandate there is nothing depicted in the Old Man's mythos that would explain why he would allow Hoover to imagine he was birthing a cypher already in existence and usher the group into an era he blatantly has no interest in. He asserts that not a single member of the modern day incarnation of the Group has he not been custodian to, his bemoaning of the factious division between science and myth and his preoccupation with the theological intentness of the Roosters argues with the notion that he allowed Hoover to mold the matrix of the Group into a federal body whilst being clearly bereft of the theological history, and its symbolism, he so cherishes.

Of course I concur that it is welcoming to assume that Hoover is forging new strides forward, bereft of history, inspired by ignorance but our knowledge of the Group's history teaches us that its navigator would not have been implicit in such an ignorant folly.

True, the Old Man presents a problem to some degree, but I don't think one could say The Old Man's power over the group actions is absolute, only his role revered. I would say Hoover is a problem in all respects to canon given if we see him a true Group member. My postulation is that maybe he isn't; but a pawn of the Group that helps give them the greater control of the law and governmental control. Now this would imply you'd need a story unto itself to explain such a notion; how some of the more progressive thinkers would move in motions the Old Man would unlikely to approve of to manipulate people at the very top into thinking - a bit as Frank originally did - that the Group is something far more simpler and less arcane than it actually is, and helped established it by accidentally finding a symbol which he'd been puppeted to find. In other words, the Group Hoover is being manipulated into giving power and credibility is a group who already has this moniker but allowing this one man the feeling of control; a feeling he is giving birth to a new era of control when in fact he himself is being controlled to help bring the Group into a new era.

It does take on a lot of presumptions. Honestly, given your point about the Old Man, maybe we have to presume his role in the Group came AFTER this event, then the simplest answer is that the Group was born in this time period; that the connections with the the Millennium Group's historical beginning just shows the providence invested in the legacy of the Group; that it's existence is almost supernatural itself and will fill a vacuum of power if presented, and the notion will come to the person who orchestrates it as if its a new idea.

I personally like the idea that the Group is manipulating Hoover for his power not his membership; that he wouldn't naturally fit in the Group's process of initiation or core beliefs and is used by the Group; that even the oroborus could have been given to him as a notion he's claiming to be his own or somehow tricked into seeing it. Or again, maybe there is a spiritual destiny which made the use of the moniker part of the legacy's providence. I could see the more fanatical and powerful members the Group, straying from the mythological puritan roots, to "adopt" Hoover into the Group superficially to pull the strings of power rather than to grant him full access.

Again, I'm just musing. Find holes, pick away, and maybe we'll carve an idea which remains simply yet effective.

Finally, do you think this was a deliberate retcon of Group history or do you think its just a liberal shift and we are still to take The Old Man and the group legacy as true (as we know it)?

I too welcome any ponderings on this paradox as the Millennium Group's history is of particular importance to me.

Boring though it may be to everyone else. May I also say it is a pleasure to read your posts Laredo and I seek them out daily. It is warming to know that this board still ruminates over Millennium's mysteries in such a wonderfully musical way.

Likewise. Don't stop. Takes two to tango!

[ethsnafu]

After reading your post I felt compelled to tuck-tail-between-legs and salute you on so many of your ideas. Big parts of me thank you for this speculation as many a turbulent brainstorm has been given to this issue without any satisfactory eth-resolution. It is a fair and observant comment to make that the Old Man's rule is not absolute, the civil infighting of 'Owls and Roosters' depicts the Old Man in much the same light as our Monarch, a representative and cornerstone who is betoken of history rather than an active agent in the Group's activities. It is highly logical to assert that the fundamental policies of the Group were formulated by a proactive forum of members of which Hoover could well have been a component. It also sits naturally that a group attentive to the progression of world events would at some point assume an impelling position in such affairs and courting the compliance of the FBI would augment its ability to address such issues with prowess.

My only misgiving lies with the solid assertion that the Group considers its history of comprising of two thousand years of evolution. Its attention and politics have concerned hermetic matters for an age and to think that any associate of the Group could be ignorant of the vast importance placed upon the ouroborus does not sit easily with me. I still believe that for Hoover to been in a position to create a new direction, or faction, for the Group he must, at the very least, have been conversant with the prominent aspects of it.

Lilly Unser always seemed to me to be a product of a Millennium Group rebirth that occurred in the 1940's as depicted in Matroyshka (a doll within a doll, a group within a group,) This J Edgar Hoover lead re-invention was born from a revelation concerning the nature of evil, this offshoot rose with the mandate to uncover how good men could create something so evil as the atomic bomb - its mantra was to become the third Millennium Group end time ideology "We are racing towards an apocalypse of our creation." As this mantra began to dominate Season Three so too did the murder of innocents: it thematically feels like a new and all consuming vision rather than the result of the groups manipulation.

"The church is a snake in the open. It is the snake in the grass that causes concern." Millennium Group Member, 998 AD.

Lets go right back to the beginning, a very good place to start, it is generally accepted that the Millennium Group was essentially whole until the heretical teachings of Galileo inspired those so inclined to form the Owl faction. Those who accepted his vision of a heavenly catastrophe born from a falling mass of ice and dust must have formed this errant faction around 1618 when Galileo first turned his attention to the serious study of comets. Without this study, without these theories there could be no Owls and no Roosters as it was this new testament to the end times that causes the schism between members to form. It is eluded to that the group reached a mutual understanding until modern times when the infiltration of Odessa augmented the uneasy alliance between the two factions. What I am trying to state is that the history of Season Two does not note a sudden shift in emphasis nor even mention Hoover who we are to learn was instrumental in a fundamental change in direction and yet Matroyshka would have us believe that two thousands years of history were influenced by two men in a room.

My problem with this is I simply cannot reconcile it though you have gone someway to easing my aches on this score.

Edited November 20, 2007 by ethsnafu

[Guest Jim McLean]

My only misgiving lies with the solid assertion that the Group considers its history of comprising of two thousand years of evolution. Its attention and politics have concerned hermetic matters for an age and to think that any associate of the Group could be ignorant of the vast importance placed upon the ouroborus does not sit easily with me. I still believe that for Hoover to been in a position to create a new direction, or faction, for the Group he must, at the very least, have been conversant with the prominent aspects of it.

That is possible. The problem with the theory I presented is its so wide. You really would need a whole story devoted to it to iron out the niggles. I feel personally - given your affirmation on many points (as I don't pretend to have had the exposure to make any definitive answers to the MG to make any comment stand on my voice alone), that this could be the notion they were looking for but the details are not disclosed. Being fiction is malleable, I see no reason why these valid, smaller issues couldn't be ironed out.

Was Hoover part of the group as we know it in Season Two? Personally, I can't see it, though it depends as to what we see on screen that we take as fact.

Season Two very much paints - as you point out a consistent growth and vision within the group with some minor deviations occurring along the line regarding prophecy. Unless something occurred in the last few centuries that the show never made us aware of (which is possible - 2000 years of existence would naturally form problems beyond what the show has time to divulge), the group's core theological standpoint would be a constant. I can't see how Hoover could be a natural member of the group and not see the oroborus as anything but an obvious symbol - hardly anything that would require introduction.

This is - of course - as to whether the oroborus was STILL the primary moniker. Again, if we go back to the notion that even if the group remained constant, 2000 years can create a lot of changes, there is no reason that the monkier was lost to the group only to be reinstated by Hoover later on. We know the Group isn't utterly stable - the issue of Owls and Roosters shows there are factions now, and for all we know, there could have been further factions earlier on. There could have been a time when the oroborus was rejected or lost in one of the incarnations of the Group during the centuries. There could even be a splinter of the group which Hoover had control of, a part of which rejected both the Owls and Roosters but embraced the need of the group to create a control base for society that wouldn't have to embrace either notion, but simply utilizes the power to the good of society as we see it. It COULD be that Hoover was part of this splinter/evolutionary strand of the group. You COULD even consider that his re-introduction of the moniker inadvertently pulled the group back on track, or returned it as a whole and reinforced the Millennium prophecies.

I think there are many possibilities as to the situation. I personally feel that the manipulation, internal politics and distance the Old Man took from the day in/day out workings of the Group is enough to make me feel that Hoover was either the initiator or pawn of a new era of the Group which he doesn't agree with, but like a disappointed father, doesn't get involved in the business of his sons unless he really has to, and hopes they will find their way on their own. I find that is the easiest answer given the lack of information. How Hoover fitted into the group really depends on how the Group was structured at the time. Again, could be that the Group was failing by the early 20th Century; that it had lost its way, or even relaxed it's legacy to introduce members who could help bring its destiny, and then slowly prime them with the requirements that would bring the group back with the contemporary icons to re-introduce the legend of Manifest Destiny.

There are so many possibilities and I think that leaves the answer always feeling a little empty.

Lilly Unser always seemed to me to be a product of a Millennium Group rebirth that occurred in the 1940's as depicted in Matroyshka (a doll within a doll, a group within a group,) This J Edgar Hoover lead re-invention was born from a revelation concerning the nature of evil, this offshoot rose with the mandate to uncover how good men could create something so evil as the atomic bomb - its mantra was to become the third Millennium Group end time ideology "We are racing towards an apocalypse of our creation." As this mantra began to dominate Season Three so too did the murder of innocents: it thematically feels like a new and all consuming vision rather than the result of the groups manipulation.

I think for the audience its a vision which fits with the thrust of Carter's third season, getting back to the roots of the show. Perhaps not quite as realistic as Carter would have liked, but the conspiracy lends a more contemporary and certainly less unlikely notion that the group is 2000 years old as Morgan/Wong deviated. So yes, I agree, I think this - for the show - was more a retcon than an intention to add a layer to the Group's past.

However, given the third season DOES retain ties to the second (and fairly strong ones), I think there is intentionally little enough data to allow room for the two ideas to tie, or even imply there is an agenda/era that is yet to be explored (though never was).

"The church is a snake in the open. It is the snake in the grass that causes concern." Millennium Group Member, 998 AD.

Lets go right back to the beginning, a very good place to start, it is generally accepted that the Millennium Group was essentially whole until the heretical teachings of Galileo inspired those so inclined to form the Owl faction. Those who accepted his vision of a heavenly catastrophe born from a falling mass of ice and dust must have formed this errant faction around 1618 when Galileo first turned his attention to the serious study of comets. Without this study, without these theories there could be no Owls and no Roosters as it was this new testament to the end times that causes the schism between members to form. It is eluded to that the group reached a mutual understanding until modern times when the infiltration of Odessa augmented the uneasy alliance between the two factions.

What I am trying to state is that the history of Season Two does not note a sudden shift in emphasis nor even mention Hoover who we are to learn was instrumental in a fundamental change in direction and yet Matroyshka would have us believe that two thousands years of history were influenced by two men in a room.

That is true. Yet at the same time, Season One doesn't really prepare the ground work for the Group in season two or three; that like all shows, fiction is so malleable that anything can change and often does - it ends up for the show or fans to reconcile these changes.

My problem with this is I simply cannot reconcile it though you have gone someway to easing my aches on this score.

I think sometimes its best to presume that the lack of information that connects a problem is also the lack of information that dissolves the problem. We don't have enough information, and we know that the Group's history has evolved. Furthermore, I would suggest (though I am not saying this was the intent), that as with all fundamentalist movements, there does tend to be a revisionist element to their own history; that what needs or is preferred to be recorded, takes precedent over what actually happened.

If I was to logically take ALL the information of the MG as accurate, I would say that it clearly dictates an absence of relevant information to tie the history together. Something has not been told, or something that has been told is not quite as it seems. Given how the Group's past has surprised us from season one, into season two, through the Old Man, through the Owls and Roosters and into season three, I'd say there is enough space to presume more has happened that what we know.

In the end, all we know is Hoover and the events that transpired fixed the Group with a course that projects the ideology and tone of the group today. If we take ALL as fact, no matter what this episode suggests on its own, we KNOW its not the beginning, so we KNOW we have missing data that prevents us tying up the historical group to Hoover.

As I've said, my internal notion is the Group had a period of fragmentation during the early 20th Century. Arguably the Great War perhaps created fragments or even offshoots of the group which the Group doesn't care to talk about. Perhaps either the War lost the Group a lot of key players, or disillusioned the Group into their ability to control events which caused the Group to weaken in power, leaving it the Group with a small set of fanatical players. However through some remnants of the Old Guard's connections, the puppeteering of Hoover (who I don't imagine was a proper group candidate simply because his progressive notions seem to share no inference to a larger destiny) into "re-creating" the Group and believing it was a group under his control, was manipulated into reinstating its direction and iconography without realising its history, the Group found contemporary vision and contemporary power to fulfill its destiny. I'd imagine the group worked briefly as a whole once more towards the common goal of strength until the upcoming Millennium started to create the Owls and Roosters split as time tends to do once the emergency ends.

Again UTTER, UTTER speculation, but I think if one wants to resolve the issues, one has to accept that a) Season Two is accurate b) Season Three is accurate, and then look for what elements could pair them together and how the two work for each other as much against, for instance, Hoover's character doesn't immediately seem like someone who knows/cares about the Group history, so I would suggest that makes him a man being puppetted to bring the group power and identity it may have yet to find in contemporary times, that the originator of the Group as I agree the show itself suggests.

[ethsnafu]

If I was to logically take ALL the information of the MG as accurate, I would say that it clearly dictates an absence of relevant information to tie the history together. Something has not been told, or something that has been told is not quite as it seems. Given how the Group's past has surprised us from season one, into season two, through the Old Man, through the Owls and Roosters and into season three, I'd say there is enough space to presume more has happened that what we know.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion here and deduce that 'Season Two' does not depict the holistic vision of the Group that, superficially, we believe it does. Whilst there is certainly more than one assertion that the Group considers its history as an unbroken, linear and interminable timeline coursing through thousands of years there is enough on display here for us to challenge this and adopt a more freeform speculation when trying to author a 'grand unified theory'.

The first identified relative of the Group, and I note that at no point is this depiction 'named' the Millennium Group, is the romantic Christian sect formed around 10 A.D. The Old Man ruminates that this era was the birthplace of his speculative timeline. We know this group undergoes the first of two identified infarctions in 998 A.D. when the archeological search for relics divides the group into two enunciated factions, the Humanists and the Theocrats: these being the antecedent parents of the Owls and Roosters. The second insurrection must occur around 1188 when Merovingian myth and Gnostic heresies have coloured the theocracy of sufficient numbers to warrant their discommunication and to result in the formation of 'The Family'. Throughout these events we are still given no firm assurance that the Millennium Group exists in totality or in name and I stand firm with you on your assertion that such a malleable history will have assimilated and rejected countless elements of its philosophical DNA over the course of its evolution. So far the only firm link between the Ouroborous and the Group's history is its appearance as a body adornment on members around 998 A.D.

To my mind the only blatant assertion that the Millennium Group exists as a coherent and identifiable entity 'pre-Hoover' comes from Lara's chatter in 'Roosters'. She notes that around 1618 the Group received controversial papers from Galileo which gave an impetus to the Humanists mandate and afforded them a coherent dictum with regards to the scientific composition of Armageddon. It seems this frenzied time of emergent sciences gave the Owls their own canon and augmented the incongruities in thinking between the two bodies and propel them toward the distinct sects we know as the 'Owls' and the 'Roosters'. Whilst I am so far meandering through all this with relative ease the mucky waters rise in the form of the Old Man's assertion that there is not a single member of the Millennium Group that he himself did not mentor The more I troubled myself with this the more I realized that in actuality this sits happily with events of Matrosyhka as it would support the notion that the Millennium Group did not exist by name until the 1940's, ergo it is somewhat argumentative elements of what Season Two painted upon its canvas.

Now one point I wish to raise is your comment regarding the possible existence of other factions within the structural umbrella of the Millennium Group, this is an ideology I have always trumpeted and cannot agree with you enough. The concept of 'others' was very much a Morgan-and-Wong-ism. In some instances it refers to the easily vanquished Odessa, in other examples it clearly refers to something within the sphere of the Millennium Group umbrella. Morgan and Wong expanded the scope of the Millennium Group's Universe to encompass group subdivisions, offshoots and those with homogenic origins: Owls, Roosters, Follow The Path, The Chroniclers and The Family all shared some thread of unity and their are clear assertions at numerous points that there are those within the Millennium Group who's axioms do not fit comfortably into either Owl or Rooster philosophy. Some time ago I put forward an argument that spewed to countless pages for evidence to support at least one further faction.

"Roosters crow at the dawn, hoping to arouse the barnyard. But the owl knows... it is still late at night. The foxes are about. The master sleeps. This... is who we are." This line fascinated me, the unexplained answer phone message that heralded a time of fractions and schisms. It is clear the owl and rooster is in reference to the two named factions, the sleeping master is obviously the (at that time) the inert Old Man but who or what are foxes? When Lara is approached by the Owls in the library the following exchange occurs. I'm certain the Millennium is not imminent. Others in the Millennium Group know this, as well." the others to which he is referring is clearly not the Roosters who do believe this, it is not in reference to Odessa who are not a group component, so who are those within the group who share the Owl's apocalyptic timeframe but not their ideology - could this be another reference to the existence of the third faction of Season Three? Are the Foxes a group so wide of the mark that they are only eluded to in allegory and only tentatively considered group at all? Now this is nothing more than fanciful speculation but it reassuring to realise that the concept of a clearly defined, historically linear, transparent and unmixed entity as initially suggested in Season Two is not without room for debate and the events of Matroyshka can in fact mix utterly into the happenings of Season Two.

Edited November 20, 2007 by ethsnafu

[Guest Jim McLean]

This is now a daily pleasure of mine. I'm not anywhere near as factual as yourself, so getting all the relevant colour out of the storyline and into this thread is fantastic and saves me skipping through Owls and Roosters for information!

I think the question of dogma over historical fact is an interesting one and Millennium plays both sides with the group. They legacy is proudly retained by its contemporary members in unity, yet dysfunction clearly has existed in some periods throughout its existence.

The point you make as to whether the Millennium Group itself - in its contemporary form - isn't as old as season two implies is an interesting one; that really it's only the ouroborus in the 10th Century that only ties the "Millennium Group" to its origins.

The issue of the Owls and Roosters, and indeed, and long term Faith often plays through a far more turbulent existence than those who live by the letter like to believe. Indeed, if we look at the Christian faith as a whole, and the separation in notions of even Protestant and Catholics, despite the fact that many followers of those denominations would see their group as being a static and focused force throughout its life, the historical legacy is often far more more colourful. My point is that people who have faith have certainty. More often than not, Faith brings clarity through absolutes and absolutes abhor change by nature. So even within the Owls and Roosters there could be change, change in the practical drive of ideology, the nature of membership, even splits within their own factions. If we look at how Catholism grew from its ancient roots, the ideology, global role, size and personality has changed from its beginning. Its the same thing but even the Catholic church has had to change with the times.

It's a fascinating idea, that historically speaking, the Millennium Group, despite its pretty clear raison d'etre, could be far more colourful that we've experienced, and given the clandestine nature of secret groups, there is no end to the potential layers that could be exploited in creating a full history. A show which deals with conspiracies as Carter's tend to, are open to so many twists and turns it allows such situations to exist without damaging canon, but equally creates frustration because the lack of certainty makes it hard to reconcile events as easily.

The more I troubled myself with this the more I realized that in actuality this sits happily with events of Matrosyhka as it would support the notion that the Millennium Group did not exist by name until the 1940's, ergo it is somewhat argumentative elements of what Season Two painted upon its canvas.

This rings true to me. Do we actually know how long The Old Man played his role in the group? I think what I like about this conversation, is that it gives Matrosyhka far more credibility and worth - I never liked the idea that the Group was potentially as powerful as it is now, sitting behind the scenes, waiting their moment with so much control. The notion that Hoover gives the group such a contemporary identity and strength, be it as a full member of not - makes the whole Group far more realistic. Unseen powerful, secret groups do happen, but to carry strength over centuries is difficult. Members are only human, and social changes bring ideological questions which in themselves makes such longterm secret existences difficult. Implosion is often a problem (as the Millennium Group risked in Owls/Roosters). The idea that this new, powerful group which itself maybe corrupting its own heritage through its new power, to me, has far more realistic resonance that fits with all Millennium's seasons. It's a nice middle ground between the contrast of Season one and two.

Now one point I wish to raise is your comment regarding the possible existence of other factions within the structural umbrella of the Millennium Group, this is an ideology I have always trumpeted and cannot agree with you enough. The concept of 'others' was very much a Morgan-and-Wong-ism. In some instances it refers to the easily vanquished Odessa, in other examples it clearly refers to something within the sphere of the Millennium Group umbrella. Morgan and Wong expanded the scope of the Millennium Group's Universe to encompass group subdivisions, offshoots and those with homogenic origins: Owls, Roosters, Follow The Path, The Chroniclers and The Family all shared some thread of unity and their are clear assertions at numerous points that there are those within the Millennium Group who's axioms do not fit comfortably into either Owl or Rooster philosophy. Some time ago I put forward an argument that spewed to countless pages for evidence to support at least one further faction.

Which is a great point; the show actively shows how the Group's legacy maybe long, but its not perfect, no matter how much the Millennium Group might like to believe. In fact, if we look at Peter alone, or even Frank, we see how individuals can splinter the group. Peter's faith was severely tested in the season two finale, which apparently he fond validity in, but the point is he was very close to reinventing the group in his eyes. Frank even more so. It just shows how human we all are. And the conflicts in ideology at a small level can be relatively expanded to he greater issues. Constants are VERY rare, and splits will occur especially in Faiths where everyone has such devoted beliefs in their own righteous perception. Hell, we only have to look at the difference between The Old Man's nature to the "children" who squabble in the proactive circles to see just quite how diverse "group" ideology can be, even when people are embracing the same ideas and/or goals.

Now this is nothing more than fanciful speculation but it reassuring to realise that the concept of a clearly defined, historically linear, transparent and unmixed entity as initially suggested in Season Two is not without room for debate and the events of Matroyshka can in fact mix utterly into the happenings of Season Two.

Absolutely. I think my final point in all this, is that to me, it seems as if the "group" wasn't the Millennium Group until Hoover, and the way he suggests the ouroborus gives a clear indication to me that the "group" has lost its way; that by this point, the power, the information and the infrastructure is in place (though whether this has stood the test of time in such a high ranking capacity is uncertain from what I can see), but the actual roots have been lost through the more recent centuries. Power has corrupted over religious dogma. The concerns for the future remain, but the religious roots have died. Otherwise, I don't think Hoover's notion of the oroborus, an ancient symbol of their power's legacy would be commented on so flippantly - from the dreams of a mad scientist to which Hoover finds faintly amusing or pertinent in light of the current events. To me, that seems to imply that providence, destiny or something external gives the Millennium Group its later 20th Century identity, and through the return of this icon came the dogma and secrecy. Either way, Hoover seems oblivious to the symbol's relevance.

But it seems that the oroborus ignited the interest in the roots of the group and its religious connotations, providing the new Millennium Group with power and secrecy through dogmatic control, and validity for its members - particularly those like Peter Watts who sought some form of enlightenment to the pain in the world through the knowledge and legacy the group had reinvested in. I get the impression the group grew from a masonic collective of information born from a forgotten ideology, into a machine able to use that knowledge and spread its wings further into a large network of power and control re-rooted and protected in dogma and loyalty.

I'm just musing, so slap me with anything that doesn't make sense.