Millennium marketing mayhem!

[Guest se7en]

I agree that the whole "end of the world" thing was a bad idea, and the show may have seen more success if it had stuck to its original formula. However, I for one and glad that risks were taken, because it sure made for some interesting television in S2, at least for me. Additionally, it's my opinion that the tangible and chilling way supernatural evil (Legion) was portrayed during S1 was not equally duplicated until "Seven And One".

POSSIBLE,VERY MINOR, SPOILER FOR "SATURN DREAMING OF MERCURY"

.......i dunno. i'm not afraid to admit that aspects of ANTIPAS and SATURN DREAMING OF MERCURY disturbed me. especially "saturn dreaming..." as now legion had designs on both frank and jorden. but,yeah,seven and one,hands down was just downright brilliantly-disturbing.

~se7en

[Guest chrisnu]

I hold him responsible for not reigning M&W in when they decided to torpedo the end of S2.

Which CC did do in Season 4 of XF. A frequent poster on an X-Files message board (Unbound I) who has written a book about Seasons 6-9 of TXF, had found out that M&W wanted to have Scully commit Mulder at the end of Season 4. In addition, in their Season 4 efforts, it appears that a breakdown of the Mulder/Scully partnership was attempted. In that scenario, I was pleased that that storyline was not allowed to continue.

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Re: "Antipas" and "Saturn Dreaming Of Mercury": I did like some aspects of these shows as well, but some cliched horror imagery tainted the experiences for me, not to mention the single most repulsive vomit-inducing MM moment ever in "Antipas". I believe I need not infer further.

Re: "Seven And One": I had never really thought of the Group being poisoned by Legion. That would certainly explain some of their behavior, although I still don't like the Gulf War inferences in "Collateral Damage", or the idea that the Group released the Marbug virus.

[Guest A Stranger]

MDM: when you get to the ep "seven and one" you'll see why,in a somewhat disturbing way, i beleive the group was infected by legion.

          ...C.C. had virtually nothing to do with S2,in a creative way, as he was still working on post production on XF-movie and he devoted himself to the horrid S5 XF to try and have it flow into the movie.-(he failed).      ...he was certainly aware of what was going on though and i hold him responsible for not reigning M&W in when they decided to torpedo the end of S2.  ...i can confirm,how and who you'll have to wait for the book ,that C.C. ,and Henriksen,were furious at the prospect of katherine being killed off,the whole virus thing,etc.  C.C. did not want these things to happen,but M&W and,sadly,megan gallagher,DID want it that way.  ...and so it happened. i still do not beleive,for one second,that had C.C. more balls,that he could not have stopped or changed the things that he was against!  -(Lance was known to be openly critical,at times,of the direction.........or lack thereof,near the end of S2.)

          ...having said all that i still TREASURE most of the season,even though i was not crazy about the thematic changes over S1.

                                                      se7en

CC has had great success during XF with letting other writers stary from what his original intent was. He let Darin Morgan write the first comedic episode and what not. My guess is that this was partly the motivation for allowing the show to get off course. M&W had proven to be fan favorite XF writers and I'm sure this played a part. Also, as stated because of XF being at the peak ratings-wise and MM not being nearly as commecially successful as it had been hyped to be, he just turned his back on it.

And I'm sticking up for XF season 5!

[Guest A Stranger]

POSSIBLE,VERY MINOR, SPOILER FOR "SATURN DREAMING OF MERCURY"

.......i dunno. i'm not afraid to admit that aspects of ANTIPAS and SATURN DREAMING OF MERCURY disturbed me. especially "saturn dreaming..." as now legion had designs on both frank and jorden. but,yeah,seven and one,hands down was just downright brilliantly-disturbing.

~se7en

"Saturn Dreaming of Mercury" (great title) had me going untl the monster in the furnace. And did anyone else pause it when Frank is attacked by it to see it clearly??!! Not cool. They should have stuck with the Gehenna Devil.

[Guest A Stranger]

Which CC did do in Season 4 of XF. A frequent poster on an X-Files message board (Unbound I) who has written a book about Seasons 6-9 of TXF, had found out that M&W wanted to have Scully commit Mulder at the end of Season 4. In addition, in their Season 4 efforts, it appears that a breakdown of the Mulder/Scully partnership was attempted. In that scenario, I was pleased that that storyline was not allowed to continue.

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Re: "Antipas" and "Saturn Dreaming Of Mercury": I did like some aspects of these shows as well, but some cliched horror imagery tainted the experiences for me, not to mention the single most repulsive vomit-inducing MM moment ever in "Antipas". I believe I need not infer further.

Re: "Seven And One": I had never really thought of the Group being poisoned by Legion. That would certainly explain some of their behavior, although I still don't like the Gulf War inferences in "Collateral Damage", or the idea that the Group released the Marbug virus.

Yeah, I heard about M&W wanting to have Scully commit Mulder. You know, in fairness and for discussion purposes, I have and unofficial XF book (can't think of the title) but it's very good and has an artitical criticing XF as a legitimate drama. And that in order to invest in a story and get any emotional effect, you need to grant the audience with certainties. We have to know certain aspects are not going to change and XF didn't do this.

The writer suggets that in "Never Again" (M&W's last XF) M&W address this. Scully is upset that everything is going in circles and they aren't getting anywhere. If they were are stay with Scully's character I don't find it that starnge that a scientist and raional thinker who has not found any reason to believe in her mind, the things that Mulder is still chasing, would lock him up. I've known people like her and they wouldn't just indulge someone like Mulder and let their carrer and personal life just die out. It seemed very realistic for Scully to be upset as she was in the episode. I mean, Scully, at this point DOES NOT BELIEVE THESE THINGS. Would you chase around aliens? That is supposing that that the show still takes place in the real world (which it is supposed to).

CC wanted to keep everything mysterious and right when some new plot comes up and we think we know what might be going on they take it way. The greatest and most hideous example came in S7 when we learn that Samantha was never abducted and is and has been dead for 20 years!! Even though we've been told and told again and again that she is alive and when this is addressed CSM simply says he lied. There's no suprise that CSM is a lair but that is a sh*t way to treat your audience (and it just got worse and worse as the series progressed). Samantha being abducted by aliens and Mulder knowing she is alive somwhere was the absolute that the show was built on from the very first episode but CC thought it was acceptable to take that away. He confuses drama with mystery.

Okay, back to were I was going . I think this writing style shows it's ugly head in MM. What is Frank's gift? He are given and very poetic and interesting explantaion in the Pilot but what hell is it really? It is said very many times early in the season THAT HE IS NOT PYSCHIC. It is a learned ablity he acquired through years of expierence to the point that he can IMAGINE what th killer is thinking. But as the show progressed it is used as though it is a pyschic ablity (Walkabout). So what is it? I think M&W in season two wanted to lay the absolute foundation in many regards. Yes, it is a pyschic ablity. He didn't aqcuire it, he enherited it from his mother and passed it down to his daughter. Period.

Another example: What is the MM group? Why are they so mysterious? Do you remember how many episodes you actually cared about Peter Watts during season one? Was there any drama or emotion for him. No, not likely. Becuase CC refused to grant the audience with any certianity as to who he he is. Does he have wife? Kids? Why does HE work for the Group? Again, right off the bat in "The Beginning adn the End" M&W address this and since he has become a real person with a clear character we, the audience can now emotionally invest in him. You may not do so but at least now it's a possablity. I was also able to invest in Frank MUCH MORE in seaon two as well. His life as person is given concretes.

That's not to say there was no drama in season one but when I think of characters I felt stronly over it's supporting characters -- Maddie from "The Wild and the Innocent" the woman from "The Well Worn Lock," the guy from "Covenant" (Sorry forgot thier names).

So I guess my point is that M&W get a lot of sh*t, and some it's deserved, but I think realzing that CC has a very different approach is crucial. It's not just simply what it's about but how it goes about it.

[Guest se7en]

......I honestly beleive that M&W used to be one of the all time great writing duos. but they lost it somewhere along the way-(The One?Willard?.. )-,for whatever reason. -(at least in my eyes)

...i felt peter was in S1 was probably as he was supposed to be,a mysterious character and mentor,along with atkins. as well as his friend. i'd rather not have a character's life shoved up my nose in 44-minutes. also season-1 was obviously wanted to focus on Frank and/or his family.-(i admit to being sometimes curious about these other characters,but knew all i had to do was wait and just enjoy what was on the screen.) there is something to said for mystery,and taking the time to bring out a character,which they were beginning to do in the 2nd half of S1. But i fully aknowledge and realize that some prefer a more straight forward approach to storytelling. i actually enjoy both kinds depending on the genre and medium.

~PEACE,

se7en

[Guest ModernDayMoriarty]

Not seen 'Seven and One' yet, it may be on today actually... I'll have to check. Sounds encouraging however! I personally loved 'Saturn Dreaming of Mercury'. I just found it so much more profoundly satisfying and chilling than for example 'Monster' in Season Two. 'Antipas' is okay but not really that great. It just rattled along really using many cliches and borrowing quite heavily from 'The Turn of the Screw'. Not half as good as either 'Lamentation' or 'A Room with no View' in my opinion.

Frank's ability in Season One was adequatly explained as an intense connection to the criminal mind, an understanding of evil on a fundamental level. That is what CC was driving at I believe. I admit I was disapointed when it was implied it was psychic abilities in 'Walkabout'. Season Two may have come down firmly as his gift being a psychic power but at the expense of his ever really using or needing it! Despite what the Old Man says, Frank's abilties seem very sidelined in S2 and rarely produce any memorable effects like they do in Season One. As to Peter Watts, well you must consider that at the start of the Season he was just one of Frank's Millennium Group associates. The others gradually fell away or were only used once so the recurrence of his character plus the fact that he is much more friendly than the others in general, serve to heighten interest in him. Chip Johanessen must be commended as his episodes 'Force Majeure' and 'Walkabout' (episodes I don't otherwise really like) and 'Maranatha' and 'Blood Reletives' (which I do like), all involve Peter Watts far more than the rest of S1 plus they make him more capable and central than simply being Frank's 'man from the lab who gives him some forensic data'. 'The Beginning and the End' shows promise for his further development but really this goes nowhere. Peter's character veers wildly from non-believer to believer, friend to enemy in S2. There is no consistency and I think they really sold him short.

And Frank is good in all the Seasons because Lance Henrikson invests so much in portraying him no matter how awful the script or corny the lines are. He was at the core of the show and was one of the main reasons I kept watching. I still think he is given his best lines in Season One as he turns into an action hero at various points in S2, plus several of the scripts are just too melodramatic (Monster, A single blade of grass).

I didn't know about the whole 'Mulder committed' thing. A good thing they were stopped is all I can say. They only produced one good episode in S4 X-Files anyway (The Field where I died) and even that had some ropey acting at various points. When they were co-executive producers of the X-Files in S1 and the first half of S2, I believe the X-Files experienced its best times. S2 takes a nose dive as soon as they leave and like I said, most UK people starting to give up on the XF by Season Three. The comedy episodes just shouldn't have been in them (or they should at least have been funny) as I could never understand the wild popularity of Darin Morgan. In MLM, 'Jose Chung's Doomsday Defence' is very funny but is very, very similar to the only XF of Darin Morgan's that I like (Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose), that it seems like a rewrite in places. I should probably mention that I don't really like 'Somehow Satan got behind me' at all, it just isn't funny most of the time. 'War of the Coprophages' is one of my contenders for worst XF ever (along with the Post-Modern prometheus) and I really despise 'Jose Chung's from Outer Space' too. That said though, Season Three had 'The Howard Gordon effect', i.e it was much, much darker in the main than the two previous seasons. That would have been great for Millennium (Grotesque could be considered a de facto Millennium episode!), but the X-Files was never that dark and suffered immensly as regular viewers who tuned in for the strange and wonderful, just couldn't handle the harsh intensity that Carter, Spotnitz and Gordon were blitzing them with. It has some truly outstanding moments (Grotesque, Oubliette, Pusher, Piper Maru) but it really signalled the end of the XF's runaway success in the UK.

But anyway, back to millennium...

Thanks.

[Guest Pencil Machine Operator]

Hello again.

Sorry, MDM, I just think we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm in Ireland, so I get BBC and ITV...and i have to say that I'm just not interested in detective dramas; thats not to say i hate them, they just never, you know, moved me. You are obviously very interested in them (I get the Sherlock Holmes reference in your username). So what's to do? [shrugs shoulders]

We also seem to disagree very deeply on the X-files too. Personally, I think Howard Gordon was responsible for all the 'filler' episodes. I always thought of him as a bit of a journeyman. Also (this is probably blasphemous), I think that Chris Carter, yes, Chris Carter, was responsible for all of the worst (ever!) XF episodes:

Space, Fire (complete with smug [un]witty hollywood brit), Fight Club...

On second thought, he wrote some of the best aswell...

But, after all that, I agree with what you're saying about 'finding an audience'(it needs one to survive)...but then again I think that keeping that audience would (at least for MM) involve a certain amount of compromise.(SevenandOne was a very uncompromising episode, which is a good thing, I feel.)

I should probably qualify everything by saying that, generally, I'm not much of a TV fan...which probably goes some way in explaining my cynicism.

eh, that's all, I think,

PMO

[Guest ModernDayMoriarty]

Must dash but before I go.

Yes, Howard Gordon started quite badly but he made vast improvements as time went on. I break them down thus:

Good episodes he wrote:

Conduit. S!.

Fallen Angel. S1.

Miracle Man. S1.

Sleepless. S2.

Firewalker. S2.

Fresh Bones. S2.

Nisei. S3.

Grotesque. S3.

Unrequited. S4.

Average Episodes.

Born Again. S1.

Dod Kalm. S2.

F. Emasculata. S2.

D.P.O. S3.

Avatar. S3.

Teliko. S4.

Kaddish. S4.

Zero Sum. S4.

Bad Episodes.

Ghost In The Machine. S1.

Lazarus. S1.

That's how I (very quickly) view his work. His dark style would have been very good for MLM in my opinion but there we are. Anyway, must hotstep it.

Thanks.

[Guest A Stranger]

......I honestly beleive that M&W used to be one of the all time great writing duos. but they lost it somewhere along the way-(The One?Willard?.. )-,for whatever reason. -(at least in my eyes)   

            ...i felt peter was in S1 was probably as he was supposed to be,a mysterious character and mentor,along with atkins. as well as his friend. i'd rather not have a character's life shoved up my nose in 44-minutes.  also season-1 was obviously wanted to focus on Frank and/or his family.-(i admit to being sometimes curious about these other characters,but knew all i had to do was wait and just enjoy what was on the screen.) there is something to said for mystery,and taking the time to bring out a character,which they were beginning to do in the 2nd half of S1. But i fully aknowledge and realize that some prefer a more straight forward approach to storytelling.  i actually enjoy both kinds depending on the genre and medium.

                                                          ~PEACE,

                                                                  se7en

I like the mystery too but I think that CC began to rely on it way too much. A big complaint about TXF as it began to go on is that it was at times nothing more than a set piece, smoke and mirrors, and some cryptic dialgoue and there you go, a story. Now, I'm not saying that this is what happened in MM but the same devices are there.

And yeah, M&W haven't done much of anything worth while that they created on thier own in general.