Morgan & Wong's Millennium

[Guest Gary]

It has been bubbling up inside me ever since the end of Season Two, and try as I might, I just can't hold it in any longer! I simply must get this off my chest: Morgan & Wong DESTROYED Millennium, and ultimately contributed a great deal towards its cancellation. Now don't get me wrong, there were lots of excellent episodes in S2, and I loved the religion and spirituality elements M&W brought in, along with a little more exploration of the character of Frank Black and the Millennium Group itself, but making the MG evil, separating Frank and Catherine, the Marburg Virus and then killing Catherine off in the final episode of S2 were big, big mistakes. I think as a result of the changes they made, it made writing and producing Season Three an extremely difficult task.

Whilst I think a lot of blame for the show's cancellation can be attributed to M&W, Chris Carter must also shoulder some of the blame for leaving the show in M&W's hands to concentrate on the X-Files. Does anyone know with a certain amount of accuracy, what Chris Carter and Lance Henriksen thought of the changes M&W made in S2? I've read various articles on the web stating that they were both furious with M&W, but I've also read other articles that indicate they were happy with the changes M&W made.

I totally applaud what Chip Johannessen and the rest of the writers did in S3 in getting it back to what S1 was like, and it's probably my favourite season after S1. I loved the way they downplayed the whole Marburg Virus thing in S3, and to me it was like they were sticking two fingers up to what M&W had done in S2. I especially loved "The Sound Of Snow" (one of my favourite episodes) because of how that episode gave Frank some closure on his beloved wife's death - in fact, the writer of that episode, Patrick Harbison, has endeared himself to me as one of my all-time favourite writers on the show. However, S3 isn't without its criticisms (some of which can be related to M&W's changes in S2), and whilst I have no doubt that the writers were trying to get away from the events of S2, I do wish certain elements of S2 (particularly the MG history elements) had been retained to add a little more continuity between S2 and S3.

Anyway, I'm glad to of finally got that off my chest! Your thoughts?

[SadEyes]

Well, for me Season 2 is my personal favourite. I don´t think M&W were responsible for the cancellation of the show, in fact the ratings got better in season 2. Chris Carter did not volunteer to give up the show, he had an argument with FOX (who else :grin2: ). They wanted to make the show a little "brighter" and eventually giving Frank a partner, who would make funny statements whilst Frank was seriously following the case (what a nightmare ) I like the mythology in season 2 very much, perhaps without it MillenniuM would be just another mystery show. Maybe they wanted also to get away from PROFILER, a show with a similar content, creating something never seen before. But the original ideas for season 2 concerning the Group came from Carter himself if my mind serves me well. At least he wanted to explain that the Group is watching over mankind for a long time (like in Hand of Saint Sebastian), but I don´t know if he wanted the Group to turn diabolic. Season 3 has also good episodes, but not as good as on season 2, and it has bad episodes, worse than in season 2. For me Season 1 was just the beginning, season 2 was beyond imagination and season 3 slowed everything a little bit down again. I´m wondering what a season 4 could have been like...

[Guest chrisnu]

I've read various articles on the web stating that they were both furious with M&W, but I've also read other articles that indicate they were happy with the changes M&W made.

It's called promoting the party line. You praise what's new. I've read articles where LH praised M&W's work, and others where he hated it.

I alternately like that the Group had more to do in Season 2 than Season 1, but... I'm not sure about the Machiavellian tendencies. When you think about it, the series was really ahead of its time in terms of duplicity. Take a look at new shows that have conflicted major characters that are both bad and good; "The Shield" and "The Sopranos" come to mind. It makes for interesting television. The inner workings of the Group were fascinating to watch, yes, but narratively I'm not so sure that it was a good decision. It gave the Group more depth, but it created problems, particularly in the season finale. Each time I re-watch "The Fourth Horseman" and "The Time Is Now", I'm liking them less. I enjoyed the religious elements at times ("The Hand Of Saint Sebastian" and "Owls"/"Roosters" come to mind), but other times, it was just too in-your-face ("Anamnesis" and "The Time Is Now" most strikingly).

I don't think Season 3 was a lot like Season 1. There was less about the Group, yes, but there were still way more episodes that were not based on a murder, and there was not a focus on the Black family like in Season 1. Re-watching Season 2 has made me re-think about my opinion on the changes made the the Group that year. However, I think the duplicity in S2 was (IMHO) more interesting to watch than the one-dimensional bad Group of S3. There are some great episodes in S3 ("Through A Glass, Darkly" and "Borrowed Time" come to mind), but it's still my opinion that the first series of episodes in S3 were awful, trying to turn MLM into a generic cop show. The stories did get better as the season went on, but some stories had a muddled plot that didn't really add up to much ("Bardo Thodol"). The thing I didn't like the most about S3 was the retconning - "The Innocents"/"Exegesis, "Skull And Bones", and "Matryoshka" come to mind. I don't mind the idea that the continued corruption of the Group led to more evil, but changing what we thought the Group was in this way irked me, like how the changes made in S2 irked other people.

PS. I liked the Frank/Catherine scenes and the return to Seattle in "The Sound Of Snow", and the teaser was beautifully directed, but the X-Filey case with little attempt to explain it keeps it from my favorites list. This was a problem with many late-S3 episodes for me.

Edited April 24, 2004 by chrisnu

[Guest Pencil Machine Operator]

Millenium had some viewership issues right from the start. First episode got a load of viewers, but the ratings gradually tapered off when everyone realised how relentlessly dark the whole thing was. From then on, I think it just had a few million intelligent people like us, who didn't find the show depressing at all.

Gary, If you read some of the old threads, you'll find a lot of heated discussions about s2 versus s3. I think most disagreements tend to centre around The Time is Now; people who like the episode tend not to be big fans of season3, and vice versa.

If you look at the poll for favourite season (down in one of the other threads), I think you'll be a little surprised to see quite a large majority of s2 fans (including myself). But don't worry, youre not alone: A big scary Admin guy called Se7en (joking!) is a very vocal season3 supporter. I'm not sure who else is though...(joking, again)

Personally, I liked Season3 from 'Borrowed Time' on. The episodes before this one, to me, felt like they were written by some FOX board member, rather than a real writer. Too many gunfights and explosions, which were contrived for the sole purpose of attracting the punters. And there was the whole "my sister was murdered" thing with Emma, which was one of the laziest plot-lines I've ever witnessed (why should I empathise with a walking cliche?).

I always find it difficult to say why I like something, so I'm not the best person to stick up for Season2, but I'll make a fist of it, as they say.

Personally, I would agree that M&W endangered the show (even though it was in danger already), but that's only because of all the bold and -IMO- successful experiments throughout the season. Episodes like Curse of Frank Black were (are) like nothing I had seen before, and ultimately were incredibly moving.

Ratings are not an indicator of a show's quality (I would actually argue that they are often inversely proportional), and I think M&W's unique approach (and their disconcern for ratings) was gutsy and unforgettable.

Well, That's my completely subjective 2 cents.

[Guest A Stranger]

I don't mind the idea that the continued corruption of the Group led to more evil, but changing what we thought the Group was in this way irked me, like how the changes made in S2 irked other people.

PS. I liked the Frank/Catherine scenes and the return to Seattle in "The Sound Of Snow", and the teaser was beautifully directed, but the X-Filey case with little attempt to explain it keeps it from my favorites list. This was a problem with many late-S3 episodes for me.

I agree with you on both these points completly.

I understand the downplaying the Group, which I'm fine with but they over boarda times. For instance, dismiissing the "angels and demons" in "Matryoshka" and J.Edgar Hoover starting the Group. It doesn't work becuase the flashback to the ancient Group in "Hand of St. Sebastian" was not some Group member telling a story it was being shown as fact. And Frank and Jorden saw their share of angels and demons apart for any Group interaction to be able to dismiss them as "group propaganda." Which is such a shame becuase that episode has so many moving scenes and themes.

So many season three episodes had great scenes but only come out as good episodes for me becuase they were often dealing with themes and ideas that were not "millenniumsitic" or just out of place on the show. And like many people have said, more like The X-Files.

[Guest A Stranger]

Millenium had some viewership issues right from the start. First episode got a load of viewers, but the ratings gradually tapered off when everyone realised how relentlessly dark the whole thing was. From then on, I think it just had a few million intelligent people like us, who didn't find the show depressing at all.

If I remember correctly, the ratings plumetted right after the Pilot. There was a huge promotional effort put into the show. They went as far as previews in movie theaters which was unprecedented at the time. But then everyone turned off. So I wouldn't blame anyone for the show's weak ratings. People new about it and saw it and simly didn't like it.

[Guest se7en]

......ratings for season-1 ended at a respectable 63 for the season i beleive. no one thought it would keep the numbers of the premier and in the end S1 did better than the first 2-seasons of The-x files.

...after the first 3-4-episode of S2 the real nosedive began as fanatics of S1 slipped away;some seeming to never come back and some who came back in S3 when carter publicly promised to end the hyper-religious content.-(he was obviously courting former fans who had stopped watching,at least that's my conclusion.

but anyhow season-2 sunk like a stone which is a shame because a lot of character developement went on that was very important and substabtial. i beleive S2 ended with an overall rating near 96 for the season-(i'll double check my back issues of VARIETY as i plan on addressing this in the guide a bit after each season.) the worst rated episode is said to be "Jose chung's....." but my memory,and my "variety"-magazine-(the so-called bible of hollywood)-seems to stae that it was "Siren",a clunker for me,that was the lowest rated ep of the season. best rated was.................drumroll................"A Room With No View"-(i actually read a lot into that but once i confirm it i'll mention it in the guide.............if the guide doesn't swallow me up whole and poop me out first.)

...season-3 did "better" overall than S2 ratings and the highest rated ep of that season is said to be "Borrowed Time". the lowest rated..........i honestly have no idea from memory. ah,well.

...the show,ALL 3-SEASONS,had a killer demographic which,even back in 96 was often "more" important than actual ratings. it's demographics by which networks base how much to charge for advertising and such. and make no mistake,depsite MM costing more than XF until it moved to Los angeles,the show made Fox money EVERY year. and many other show "by" fox: BUFFY,ANGEL,etc. were NEVER as highly rated as the worst rated season of MM. MM was NOT,repeat NOT,just cancelled because of low ratings. the more i learn-(and i thought i knew most of it)-about the politics between Fox and C.C.,and by extension "MM",the more disgustingly pathetic the real story is.-(and yes,that will be addressed as well in the guide. LOL! beleive it or not the book is still planed on being no more than 330-pages,preferably just under 300,so it's possible i may have to make the print size biblicaly small if i get enough material and the press i use does not cover editing guidance/service. more info is better than less i suppose. )

more to come.........stayed tuned,

se7en

[Guest chrisnu]

Woohoo! Looking forward to a big book. It would be interesting to see some Nielsen ratings statistics on the show; unlike X-Files, I haven't been able to find much information online. "Siren" was a clunker for me too. I can understand the difficulty of finding an audience for MLM. At its best (heck, even not at its best), MLM requires some intelligence on the viewer's part (doh!), and really makes you think. Shows that make you think aren't very popular these days.

[Guest Pencil Machine Operator]

Se7en,

Does this mean you're going to confirm my belief that Rupert Murdoch is Legion incarnate? Do you think Millenium would have survived on a different network? If the ratings really werent all that bad, how come all the TV reviews around that time refer to the the show being in serious trouble? For example read the interviews on Graham's site.

Questions, questions, questions...

[Guest Legion]

You definitely have a point there Gary. Although I love S2, its course and ending really made it a most difficult task to even put up a S3. I somehow have the feeling that M&W could have been the only ones to continue from that point and properly write a S3. Actual S3 is, in my opinion, X-Files Lite. It misses S2's madness and S1's thick atmosphere and sheer violence. I think that M&W made MillenniuM walk on the edge of a cliff, and that Chip Johannessen pushed it down.

What about the nova shockwave anyway?