Frank's unaccepted Deal with the Devil

[Raven Wolf]

.....ahh,very nicely put!  thanks for your views on this.     and welcome to "TIWWA"! we hope you will visit often and contribute more in the future.

                                    ~TAKE CARE,

                                                 se7en  

I Second that, Se7en!

(try saying that five times fast!)

Congradulations on an excellint first post...  And you make some very valid points!  I was simply saying I couldn't understand why this "Angel" , would strike Al down like that, and then turn around and say that Frank's family was still in danger, because "There's not that kind of action."  Why protect some and not others?  That's all I was saying.

Now, let me Welcome you to THIS IS WHO WE ARE!

~RAVEN WOLF

[Guest Sixth Seal]

I was simply saying I couldn't understand why this "Angel" , would strike Al down like that, and then turn around and say that Frank's family was still in danger, because "There's not that kind of action."  Why protect some and not others?  That's all I was saying.

Thanks for the welcome, Raven Wolf and se7en (great moniker, btw; I loved the movie).  I've been a lurker for a while now, but I thought I'd finally go ahead and throw my hat in the ring.

There are two answers to RW's question.  Coming from the perspective of a fundamentalist apocalyptic nut like myself   , I would point out that Frank, despite all of his close encounters with good and evil, with angels and demons, with God and the devil's liege, remains a stubborn agnostic.  If one is going to hold God at arm's reach like that, what right does one have to demand or expect special protection from Him?

However, the answer that the writers of the show would more likely give is that great theological cop-out, "God works in mysterious ways."  Bear in mind that the series was kept intentionally dark, with the forces of evil/Legion growing in strength as the Millennium approached.  Having God actively protecting Frank and his family, as opposed to presenting a God that seems not to care and that intervenes only in the darkest possible way only when it suits His purposes, would've taken away much of the shows pathos and suspense.

Just my two cents, as always.

[Raven Wolf]

Well, when you put it that way.........

[Guest A Stranger]

I disagree with Frank being agnostic. Up unitl "Borrowed Time" that could be said but near the climax, on Jordon's death bed he pleas to God saying that he did everything God wanted without ever asking why and with no expectations. That scene is very poweful and I remeber when first seeing it thought it was very suprising and insightful. Frank had never admited or expressed his thoughts of God in that way before to my knowledge.

As for God or the good in Millennium, I think it  was always there, in the shadows. But it definatly demostrates the kind of worldview that they were trying to get across. Polluted by murders and madmen while every once in a while we see what might be something as powerful but good.

But the show was mostly about bad things. Legion is meant to be a symbol to represent all the evil in the world while at the same time the Angel figures seem to reprsent the same thing just in a different way.

[Guest The_0ld_Man]

All,

Having posted only a couple times before, and actually on the Samael issue, I am gratified to see more chatter on this and then some! This line of discussion broadens what I had brought up (who Samael really was in essence) to a much larger topic of the nature of “Evil” and that of Legion, as well as the war between Good and Evil. I think that the theme of the deal that Legion offers to Frank plays an integral role to the fight and its overall goal and meaning.

First, I would like to point out that I believe the fight between God and Satan (Lucifer) was after all, over the human race. Lucifer, being the morning star, and most beloved of all the Angels became jealous over the fact that man was given “Free Will”, something that Angels were not. In addition to this, it has been said that man was made in God’s image. Is this to say that Angels were not? In the end, Lucifer lead the rebellion against God and was thrown into hell for it...taking his followers to form the reverse hierarchy that mocks heaven. So, my contention is firstly that the war of good and evil inevitably revolves around the human race.

Now, with that in mind, I take you to the contention that God does not interfere with man. Proof denies faith and all that…but also in action comes the denial of “Free Will”. Simply put, we are free to choose how we act and with a proof that God exists, then the free will is thrown out the window…the gift given is taken away. I suppose that one faced with the total proof of the existence of God could choose his or her own way…but hell…what a choice eh?

The ultimate battle for reign of heaven, and hell will be played out on the field of man. The corruption of free will and the downfall of that which in Lucifer’s mind was God’s most precious and chief creation. A battle that seems to be hanging in the balance somehow on the soul of one man…Which brings me to Legion and the offers made to Frank Black. Frank’s gift allows him to become “capability” as well as that which is the darkest in man. Frank is in a unique position to see as clearly as anyone could the nature of evil as well as good.

Frank is the one man, who could possibly see the true intent of Legion’s works in the battle. Perhaps he only could see fragments…but overall, he came to the MilleniuM group who’s very actions could help tip the balance in the war. Legion’s admonition at least twice (Crocell and The Judge) asks of him to stand aside…leave the group…why? Was it because Frank would inevitably do what he did and destroy the group? Or was that the goal that they wanted? I am unsure. What seems to be clear though in the end of the show was that “We are headed toward an apocalypse of our own creation” means that the undoing of man will be at the hand of man…and thus our own free will, will do us in (a la Marburg Variant) with the help perhaps of evil.

As for Samael and his actions, I am beginning to think that perhaps his was the action of balance. In “Powers and Principalities” his act of binding Allistair Pepper, and removing him from the world of man seemed to have some meaning as yet undetermined. If indeed Samael is an angel the quote “you have no idea how it pains me to be here” makes much sense to me. The place where man has free will…as well as all the horrors we bring upon ourselves.

All in all, I am very happy to have all this talk going on here….You all pose great questions that spawn many more.

“This is who we are”

Regards,

The_0ld_Man (note..not The Old Man who runs this place but another)

[Guest The_0ld_Man]

Just thought I would post this here...I was cruising the net and found a great site that actually took down quotes from episodes. Here is the one from "The Curse of Frank Black" where Crocell makes his speech.

Crocell: "I know your feeling strange right now kid, but believe me. Its a helluva lot creepier for me to be back. That night I was so dying to know if the dead can return, if there's anything afterwards. Remember. The time when your really askin' the question and when you really need to know just goes by like, poof, nothing. But you know the answer. Forever. I'll tell you this. All that stuff you hear about the fire and the brimstone and the rats and the excrement and the demons tormenting you for all of eternity. There's none of that stuff. Its worse. Its so much worse. It is for me at least. Imagine having to suck on this for all of eternity man, I wish someone told me.

He, he. Others they, uh, they ain't got it so bad, I guess. I don't know. You'll know, soon enough. I've been sent here because you've become me. The way people look at you. What they say about you. Makin' stuff up. Pretty soon you come to believe its true and then its all its really all over. You know I threw things at my house too, not eggs though. I think I threw dog crap. Yeah, I threw dog crap from my back yard at my kitchen window. I'd never clean it off. Imagine that. The one think you've got that I never did is that your getting close to understanding what's about to happen. And he's been watchin' you.

Uh huh. Oh yeah. More closely and more often the closer you get. Here's the deal kid. Give up the fight. Sit it out. Forget about this Millennium Group. Go back to your wife and to your daughter and to your puppy and to your yellow house and just live out a nice happy normal life and there's gonna be a place for all three of you afterwards. A place, believe me, where a lot of souls wish they could be. But you pass on this, and your going so much farther than I've ever been. Hell. The way you gutted that guy who took your wife. The anger in side of you. Woo. He. He. I don't know why your not being offered a sweeter deal. You got the heat inside of you to fight for this side. So what I'm askin' of you is really simple. Sit back and do nothing! Anyone could do it!

Well. Most people do. Take this deal kid. Secure you and your family's future. Because the time is near and he will win. There's no way he can lose!"

Frank: "When will it happen?"

[Raven Wolf]

That is a GREAT scene!!!  And, very inspiring.  It should be a reminder to all of us, that to sit back and do nothing is to do the devil's work.