The Innocents/Exegesis

[Guest Laurent.]

There is no way I could ever see the Group as "pacifists" in Season 2. How then do you reconcile the murder of Richard Gilbert?

Just as Mr. Lott and Watts said; the Group will make mistakes for which they will not apologize. We never knew the extent of what Gilbert learned about Millennium, this knowledge might have forced the Group to kill him. I'm not saying that this murder is more excusable than the murder committed in season 3. But at least we could understand that, maybe, the Group's logic wasn't that bad and that maybe their bigger plan had more importance than human lives. Who knows?

Knowing what Millennium had become in season three, it's easy to go back to season two and point out the various events that made it clear that they were "evil". But, had 1013 chosen another direction for season three, maybe we would have an entirely different view of it. My point is just that M&W didn't make the Group unredeemable even if they did change it a lot (too much?).

[Guest ZeusFaber]

Just as Mr. Lott and Watts said; the Group will make mistakes for which they will not apologize. We never knew the extent of what Gilbert learned about Millennium, this knowledge might have forced the Group to kill him. I'm not saying that this murder is more excusable than the murder committed in season 3. But at least we could understand that, maybe, the Group's logic wasn't that bad and that maybe their bigger plan had more importance than human lives. Who knows?

But none of that matters. Regardless of if or how you rationalise it, those who commit murder are, by definition, not pacifists.

[Guest Laurent.]

But that wasn't the question.... the original discussion was about the motives of the Millennium Group and trying to determine why and when they became so evil (I should look up some synonyms for evil haha) compared to the original idea of Chris Carter. I just wanted to agree with you that, in the second season, their action already depicted a different mentality (one that, as you said, is far from being pacifist). But I also wanted to give some nuance to what you were saying. Because, unlike you it seems, I think that after season 2 there was still an opportunity for the writers to bring Millennium (the group, not only the show) to something closer to what it was in season one. And that it was not just a matter of being held a baton and having to run with it. I just don't think that the malevolent and controlling mentality of the group was a decision of M&W alone. They raised some questions about the beliefs and motivations of the group but I feel like season three gave us the answer.

edit: Ok, I returned to the beginning of the topic and that wasn't the original discussion at all! hahaha but I was responding to you (zeus) when you said:

"This is the first seed sewn as Morgan & Wong attempt to reinvent the Group toward more sinister ends."

2nd edit: I'm having a hard time with this tonight.... @Zeus: I just realized you never implied that the redirection of the Group "toward more sinister ends" was something that came only from M&W. I may have been arguing for nothing because I have always agreed with you that in season two their actions were far from pacifist even though their motives were obscure at the time. I would just like to know if you agree with me that season three was not forced to "run with the baton" but could have changed things around once more.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Laurent.

[Guest ZeusFaber]

But that wasn't the question....

It was the question we had reached. Eth suggested the Group could be seen as pacifists in S2. I countered.

I just realized you never implied that the redirection of the Group "toward more sinister ends" was something that came only from M&W. I may have been arguing for nothing because I have always agreed with you that in season two their actions were far from pacifist even though their motives were obscure at the time. I would just like to know if you agree with me that season three was not forced to "run with the baton" but could have changed things around once more.

I don't think I can give you a short, straightforward answer on that. I do think that S2 made the Group sinister for the first time where it wasn't before. But do I think that S3 could have changed things around once more? Not entirely. To an extent, there was no going back. However, that is not to say that they had to escalate things to the level we see in "Skull and Bones", which is the point you and Eth seem to be making.

Let me explain. I don't think S3 had any chance of returning to what the Group originally was in S1 (i.e. the Academy Group in all but name). That was not possible. With all the cult mechanations, secrecy, fighting, blood-oaths, murders and assassinations, the die had been cast by S2. So backwards was not a direction they could go. That left two directions, forwards, or skirting around in a kind of sideways motion. Forwards is the direction they decided to go, and it was forwards with bold strides toward the greater extremes we see in "Skull and Bones". It was an extension, but a logical extension. The other option would be more muddled, to try and reconcile all the things we saw in S2 and try to provide mitigating circumstances, complex rationals and reasonings -- in short, to get the Group off on a manslaughter charge rather than a murder charge.

So, to an extent, I agree when you say there was another option, but not quite to the extent you say there could have been a total U-turn. To my mind, they chose the best and most logical option that made the most sense in terms of giving the narrative forward momentum. To take the other option would have been to hedge their bets, to pull their punches, and to try and finagle their way around the issue in a way that would have been more of a cheat and a get-out-clause that would have smacked of reverse-gear. To their credit, they accepted the new landscape and navigated it in a more pleasing way.

[ethsnafu]

I must also mention that an aspect of the Group that did please me was to portray it as an external element of the story allowing us to concentrate on Frank without having to navigate through the, by then, voluminous mythos established by Season Two. I believe it would have been a mistake for Season Three to have attempted to provide resolution to the countless mysteries and ambiguities Season Two established: many of which became bigger concerns than protagonist himself. I truly believe that Season Three would have been an unmitigated disaster if it had attempted to continue to explore the group in the manner previously established so I concur that a need for change was necessary and that change, for the most part, was the right one.

I admit that it is a matter of personal taste and a sinister group was never a concern of mine and without "Skull and Bones" this more extreme direction would have sat happily with me. It is probably time for me to give the direction its due without allowing it to be tainted by an episode I thoroughly dislike. As you quite rightly note there was no way to return to the more organic Group that was Chris Carter's original intention and it would have been difficult to build on Morgan and Wong's vision without the narrative become unfathomable so to make the Group an element of the story rather than the story itself is commendable.

Trying to meld science with spirit though was clearly the problem for the new direction as early episodes seem to assume that natural evolution for the Group was to become something akin to the conspiracy group of the X-Files. It is not until Bardo Thodol, to my mind, that we are presented with a story that seems to feel once again like a uniquely Millennium experience and from this point on this excellence simply gets better. The fact that a Season Four was never allowed to build on this new found confidence and understanding is a great loss and whilst Season Three always views, for me, as a season with radical degrees of quality the latter half of it is Millennium at its zenith.

[Guest ZeusFaber]

Trying to meld science with spirit though was clearly the problem for the new direction as early episodes seem to assume that natural evolution for the Group was to become something akin to the conspiracy group of the X-Files.

I have to just say that I really do think the Group were a lot more like something out of The X-Files in S2 than anywhere else. With their shadowy meetings ("Owls"), impenetrable circles ("Luminary"), double-crosses ("The Hand of Saint Sebastian"), and sinister sabotage ("The Time is Now"), they were more akin to the Syndicate there than ever before or since.

[BillQS]

Interesting how threads morph!

I found the Group using machine guns in Exigeses to assassinate the seers to be very jarring... even after all the things that occurred in Season Two. I think what Season 3 did was resolve the ambiguity about the Group and the producers decided to make the group evil.

One could ask why? I think there are several reasons for it some contextual with the show, and some a result of real life circumstances.

Contextually, I believe the decision was made to try to "simplify" the Millennium mythos... not in an attempt to "dumb it down", but rather to make it more accessible to new viewers. Most people here seem to agree it would have been impossible to continue on in the story like Season 2. The mythic properties of the Group had gotten unwieldy and even in ambiguity pointed toward a certain sinisterness. Frank's reservations about the group grew throughout Season 2 and it would have been difficult to see Frank with a "non-antagonistic" relationship toward the group in Season 3.

So the decision was made to make the group the villain instead of a friend in Season 1 and an enigma in Season 2. This turned out to be good, because seeing the group from the outside as others have said, kept the MG from becoming the center of attention and returned it firmly to Frank Black.

My take on Frank's active accusation in Innocents and Exegesis that the MG had killed his wife and unleashed the plague was that some of this was an exaggeration of the Group's involvement due to the extreme horror and recovery Frank had gone through during the preceding 5 months.

I also think an emotional exaggeration on Frank's part is the only way to justify a theory that the plague was unleashed just to kill the remote viewers. As Eth has said, there were far more direct and easier ways of eliminating them. I have taken it to believe that the remote viewers knew and were prepared for the plague, but not necessarily that the plague was unleashed by the MG simply to silence the visionaries. I think the MG would have been greatly pleased had they perished, but since they didn't they took matters into their direct hands in the aftermath.

As to real life 1013 production considerations we have to remember that as of the Season 2 DVD's Chris Carter still had not even viewed all the Morgan and Wong episodes. I don't think he could have just continued the story in Season 3 even if he had wanted to.

So at least some of the elaborate theories we fans create I believe come from the facts on the ground at 1013:

* Morgan and Wong had signed on only for one season.

* Morgan and Wong had been instructed by Chris Carter they were to create an ending suitable for both a season end and a series end.

* Chris Carter had the idea to kill off Catherine's character.

* To almost everyone's surprise the show was picked back up at the last minute.

* This left people with little connection and knowledge of the previous season to QUICKLY have to come up with a way to continue the show.

*CC wanted to return Millennium's focus back toward its beginnings in Season 1.

*Fox probably was behind the scenes telling CC "Why can't Millennium be more like X Files?

You mix all these factors in a pot and you get a surprisingly good final season given that so much was done "on the hoof" as it were.

I guess I take all the above into account and that's why I am able to enjoy The Innocents and Exegesis more than I expected to.

[Guest tjmasiakowski]

You mix all these factors in a pot and you get a surprisingly good final season given that so much was done "on the hoof" as it were.

Very true, very true BillQS. Nice read btw.

[BillQS]

Thanks!

Oddly enough I had 45 minutes and just finished my first big letdown in Season 3 "Thirteen Years Later..."

It wasn't a complete loss though... I loved the mention of the Frenchman going all the way back to the Pilot and Frank's exhortations that he would catch the killer- even if it would drive him insane... for the third time!

[Guest tjmasiakowski]

Haha, watched that two days ago or so... :)

That was a nice episode indeed. I loved it!

Edited January 16, 2009 by tjmasiakowski