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Why assume The Judge is a manifestation of Legion

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Guest Jim McLean
He was, indeed, a pig farmer, and used his pigs to dispose of the bodies of his victims. But I think it is more likely that his reference to the name "Legion" is more borne out of that usage than any relationship to later events that involve Frank Black. Intelligent (and sometimes crazy) people are often prone to obscure quotations, references and scripture from various sources. In the instance of Frank's meeting with him, and the rhythm of the conversation, I would say that it was more The Judge's intention to confuse Frank, or maybe test him, or possibly just to keep him off-balance to better understand him.

As harsh as it is to say, I don't agree at all. :) I don't really think that interpretation allies itself with the episode. I think to label the Judge as merely trying to confuse Frank (with no real reason to) or being simply crazy (when he seems pretty coherent to me). He seems powerful, in control of his faculties. I see the connection with the pigs as being particularly relevant, as is his message that when he goes, not to take it as it appears - that his death isn't finality. He is Legion.

How does the Judge know any of that information about Frank? Well, how does he know any of the information about any of the victims? How does he know about the recently released convict that he employs as his minion?

I would say because he's Legion. In a weird way, the logic you present turns in on itself! The Judge is meant to be something more powerful than what we initially presume, but as with Gehenna, the inference is subtle - but while it's subtle, it actually is more coherant than the more pedestrian answer - that he's just some control freak who likes playing executioner.

I'm much more confident that THE JUDGE is a stand-alone episode, although I do understand that there is a desire to see connections in places, especially for fans of this series, all of us looking for little clues and nuggets of information that could be hiding in there to give it all away. So I have no problem that everyone thinks The Judge really is "Legion," who might or might not also be Lucy Butler, but I think it's unlikely, and even if it were the case, I would prefer it not to be.

Unless told otherwise by official sources, I think it does link up within season one. I'm not saying that I believe The Judge to specifically by Lucy Butler, simply facets of Evil. And as has been said, the fans have deemed it Legion because mythologically, it bests fits. Gehenna is a prompter, the later episodes are the culmination of that prompt - that there is more at work than human evil. It is essentially the question that runs through season one.

Generally in season one you can tell the "human evil" episodes by Frank's detailed analysis. The ones where there are other forces at work tend to be episodes where the antagonistic isn't analysed in any complex detail - that a mystery hangs over his abilities.

Judge - IMO - is an extension of Gehenna and the Season One Lucy Butler episodes. They all deal with the deceptive visage of unnatural Evil. I don't believe Legion was ever considered the overall theme, simply another episodic facet of an inhuman Evil that has power over people. But I don't think there can be any doubt that The Judge, Gehenna and Lucy Butler are all interconnected in season one. Where season two took all this is a different matter, but season one has a very distinct theme and build up of questions which Lucy Butler is a very blunt, and specific answer, both narrative and symbolically (she is represented by the same Evil iconic demon as in Gehenna).

Edited by Jim McLean
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Yes, if the Judge was in fact dead, why would he leave a note for Frank, "Sorry I missed you... another time?"

And the offer to "work" for him I believe also had a double meaning. I don't think he meant work for him lterally, as in killing people, he meant it in a broader way, to work for "his side" or "his cause", justice through evil.

The Judge was reponsible for truly evil acts in the guise of justice. I think his intent was to lure people to do his bidding under this pretense.

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Guest Jim McLean
The Judge was reponsible for truly evil acts in the guise of justice. I think his intent was to lure people to do his bidding under this pretense.

Which again links up to the Lucy Butler story later this season - pure evil luring and controlling human evil. In each Pure Evil episode in of MM season one, it is about pure Evil having power over the actions of Human Evil. That's what Lucy Butler does. That's what the Judge does.

If we look at the whole show, the powers of Evil seem to teeter on the perceptional. I certainly don't believe with Lucy that her body is invulnerable. I think her body could be "destroyed". I just get the impression she'd still be around. I don't think Pure evil in Millennium is meant to be bound by real laws. It's wherever it needs to be. Kill the Judge and I could imagine the Judge lives - certainly what he infers.

Again, I don't believe Lucy is the judge specifically, but I think both show evidence of being manifestations that don't neatly exist around simple trappings of physical death.

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Perhaps she is the Judge... Just a different manifestation. I dunno... I wasn't the world's largest fan of Lucy Butler... Maybe I should go watch her episodes again...

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I am growing

And I am growing anxious

And I am growing weary

And I am growing closer

And I am growing up

And I am growing impatient

And I am growing leery

And I am growing wise

And I am growing less

And less

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Guest paranoid eyes

Also in Lamentation Lucy left some clues leading to the biblical Book of the Judges. She may have done it simply because she murdered a judge ( the one who sentenced Fabricat, if I remember correctly) but I think It was also a reference to that earlier episode.

:ghost2:

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Guest Jim McLean

I prefer not to think as the Judge being Lucy or being the Judge, more than Evil is the Judge and Lucy. While not said directly, the layer in Antipas could equally be a manifestation of Evil. Again, not Lucy, nor the Judge, nor Mabius, but a vestige of absolute of Evil.

All are vestiges of Evil - which the fans have deemed Legion, which is an appropriate description. I think the idea that they are all one and the same is a little pedestrian for the show. Facets of the same absolute evil that Frank sees, an evil which enjoys nurturing and then controlling human evil.

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Actually... Now that I think of it... What is evil? Evil is what is in the eye of the beholder. Therefore, with X amount of people living on this planet, there are so 'many' definitions of what evil is. I think I understand where I'm going with this, I'm just living on 5 hours of sleep in two days, so if I doesn't make sense, I'll try again...

whoami.gif

image,Peter-spc-Watts,white,black.png

I am growing

And I am growing anxious

And I am growing weary

And I am growing closer

And I am growing up

And I am growing impatient

And I am growing leery

And I am growing wise

And I am growing less

And less

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Guest Jim McLean

I had a similar debate about this a while back. Personally I've always believed in "wrong" and "right" goverened by social context. "Good" and "Evil" have always seemed overtly arrogant and - with no disrespect - out of date concepts that derive from simplicity than an interest in the world's complexity.

But in regards to the show, this was in a large part what Gehenna was about, and not something I think the show tried to pin down. To some extent I think the show was a little contradictory - I think even Frank seemed to fluctuate between beliving evil was born from nurture and the feeling it could be something greater.

For me, season one seemed to be suggesting that evil WAS nurture; that it was backgrounds that made terrible men into terrible men - that said, it was also suggesting there was a natural, absolute evil, that preyed on human weakness and exploited it to horrific ends.

I think the absolute evil that MM suggested was something fairly near to the only true definition I can come up with - something selfish, predatory, destructive and indulgent. To be predatory isn't necessarily evil, nor are the other two to some extent, but I think ultimate evil - by human standards - is a selfishness that exists on the back of other's attempts for compassion and forgiveness that combines those four elements..

Interesting question - unsurprising as it is one of the "ultimate questions" I guess!

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I think the absolute evil that MM suggested was something fairly near to the only true definition I can come up with - something selfish, predatory, destructive and indulgent. To be predatory isn't necessarily evil, nor are the other two to some extent, but I think ultimate evil - by human standards - is a selfishness that exists on the back of other's attempts for compassion and forgiveness that combines those four elements..

And those four traits you came up with- they are all prominent in mankind. Those are the darker sinister qualities that every person has, regardless if they are clergy, billionaire, or homeless dude on the street. Is it possible that humanity, for all its good qualities, can end up being the ultimate evil?

whoami.gif

image,Peter-spc-Watts,white,black.png

I am growing

And I am growing anxious

And I am growing weary

And I am growing closer

And I am growing up

And I am growing impatient

And I am growing leery

And I am growing wise

And I am growing less

And less

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