Peter Watts

[Guest TheSunKing1972]

I am sure you guys have discussed this before, but since I am new...I will ask anyway.   What is your take on Watts? I mean, his character is so likable, but we are lead to believe the he is not really Franks friend.....yet he does help Frank out many times.  In the last episode (my favorite) we are kind of led to believe that Frank killed him, but we know he didn't...kinda sucked because it left us so many questions and they didn't resolve any of those with the MillenniuM/X-Files cross-over.  Anyway, Peter Watts:    or ??

[Guest TheSunKing1972]

Hmmm, I thought this was a good topic...  maybe I'm the only one who questions this  

[Guest Wellington]

Hi

Indeed I think it is a really good subject! I wish I could refer to recently seen episode to make a better reply, but I will just rely on my poor memory!

Friend or Foe? Peter may well be asking himself the same question. I think what makes Peter interesting is his faith, or let us say his beliefs through the Group. As a rooster, he seems a more traditional kind of man, with a well organised man and a beloved and loving family by his side (a non-Frank, in fact). The episode where his daughter is kidnaped shows that (care for a child, prayer before dinner). And maybe it showed to him what are his limits inside of the Group.

He is devoted to the Group. He does not question his tasks and I think he is convinced he acts for good and not evil. He may acknowledge the spreading of diseases of scret testing on human because he is sure that it will bring good when times are not so sweet. On crime scenes, he is a good ally for Frank and dedicates his work to bringing down Evil whatever the nature.

He loves the Group, and maybe is one of the few members who care more for the respect of an ancestral tradition that for executive matters. He is a field agent, but is only pursuing a job begun 2000 years before. Thus he loves the Group: it is his duty, not a job. Roosters/Owls is a good example for that.

But then Frank disrupts the comfort of Peter's mind. By unceased questioning, Frank appealed to Peter' self reasoning. He pointed out for him all the bad sides of the Group. And worse, he showed him that he himself was manipulated like the guinea pigs the Group picked up everywhere. Peter seems to know, Peter thinks he knows, but his faith is used for perverted goals. Peter may not think he is entitled to reveal his purposes to an non-initiated Frank, but his own bosses are hiding many more things to their own agents. Of course, I do not speak for the Old Man or the Elder, who seem to stick to more noble thoughts. I think that both are Peter's references, but I do not think they are the only deciders in the Group.

That is how I would define Peter. Good guy, persuaded to do good, but entitled to his commitment with the Group. He is ready to lose a friend to protect the Group, and needs to work hard to invert this process: in fact he will not be able to before the very last episode of the show.

I am sorry I do not feel like I can elaborate more now (hard week and little MM time for a while). But if I remember, I made a small analyse of Peter in Rooster/Owls in a previous topic (maybe last december or january). I hope more will join this discussion about a really deep character that contributed greatly to make MM the show we love.

Regards

[Guest TheSunKing1972]

WOW man, that was the response I was looking for..thank you for taking the time man....

besides Frank, Peter was my favorite character because I could see the conflict that went throught Watt's head when it came to Frank. I like to think that Peter was starting to see things the way Frank did and that eventually Frank and Peter would have started their own group to stop "The" Group.

Unfortunatly, we will never know.....  but then again.... I don't think Watt's is dead...don't think that it was him lying there....and if I ever become a multi-millionaire...I will ressurect the show.  lol  

[Guest]

......i have a view that may or may not be a little controversial but i'm convinced,personally speaking,that it's correct.  

   

.....I beleive that in S3-(or should i say "between S2/3")- peter was given a choice to remain in the group and under it's protections,stay "devoted" and loyal or suffer the ultimate consequences,i.e. "a shot behind the right ear from the group hitman 'mabius'" and/or losing the protection(s) of his family. a price i beleive he simply could not and would not pay    

   ...why do i think this? well,there are some VERY interesting "tells" throughout S3; you'll remember that in S1/2 that peter ALWAYS referred to the group as "WE"-("we" are on the side good,"we" beleive in a secular MM,"this is who "WE" are,etc,etc.) -Now fast forward to the second ep of S3-(the first with peter)-when he catches up with frank at jordan's new school to warn him to stop making accusations about the group. frank,understandably,responds with a virtual "f*** you pal!"  Then witness a look of almost desparation on peter's face as he says,almost franticly:".....Frank,you don't undertsand "THEY" are watching you!!!".-(for the first time i can ever recall it was "they" and not "WE")-Seeing as this ep was writen by chip johannessen,who has been with the show since it's inception,and was/is very intimate with all the storylines and threads  i refuse to believe that this phrasing by peter was an accident or meaningless.

       

     ...This theory,for me,is further backed up by the fact that throughout almost every ep of S3 that featured peter he was almost always being monitored by "mabius",the group hitman. he was always lingering somewhere around peter,usually behind him,and it was obvious to me that peter was NOT vomfortable around the man,who in the seminal ep "seven and one" was shown to be yet another manifestation of "legion" signifying,to me at least,that the group was "infected",if you will,by legion.

 ....i did NOT form this opinion when the eps first aired. it was only after i was blessed enough to get the laserdisc box sets that i was able to study the episodes at my leisure and then everything regarding this view of mine just sort of fell into place for me. .....for me this aspect added yet another shade of greatness for S3. -(S3 was my fav season alone for many years but now i have to be honest and say that i love and cherish S1/3 equally).      

    ...at any rate,at the very least i wanted to express what i feel peter was going through in S3,AND to state,simply,that i think peter was a good man who got sucked into what eventually became a dangerous cult.

                       ~my 7+1 cents,

                                      ~peace,

                                             se7en

BTW: i agree,NO WAY that was WATTS on the floor in 3abc22.

[Bardo Thodol]

Great topic, and great insights, all!!!

I will add some thoughts that I had on the man.  I think there was a gradual development of the character.  It is a bit more sinister and dark a perspective than others stated.  But it more reflects on the Group, than Peter.  Peter ultimately was bamboozled by the Group also, then ultimately controlled by it through fear and threats.  Here are the stages as I see them:

Season one: Peter was a supportive partner and mentor, with a hint of secretiveness/lurking.  An example of the hint of secretiveness/lurking - the very first time Peter meets Frank, in Pilot (2000), he does so by lurking back on the other end of the street and down the street a bit from Frank's house.  This to me was a tall tell sign of that something was not quite right about the Group and the way they operate.  But, mostly, we see Peter as a supportive partner and Group mentor to Frank.  This, to me, makes sense the in the cult indoctrination/manipulation aspect of the Group.  It would make sense that Peter would start out with Frank in this manner.  Sort of lure him into a sense of security and indentification with the Group, and its purposes.

Season 2, we see that the Group has its own agenda, right off the bat... an agenda where they pick and choose what information they reveal to its own "members", like them keeping the info from Frank about the Polaroid Man (now, I know that at this point Frank was still just a candidate, but he was extremely valuable to the Group.  And Franks life and family were at stake... and they still opted to operate according to their own agenda, until they could no longer do so safely... Frank would've like likely found out about the Groups fore knowledge, eventually... and then the BLEEP would've really hit the fan!)  Then is Beware the Dog, right off the bat, we see Peter becoming more controlling with regard to Frank... paging him repeatedly, monitoring Franks computer to see if he had checked the file about the Bucksnort deaths, etc.  Then, he angrily says to Frank that he tried to page him numerous times.  THEN, when Frank says that he was with his family, Peter says, "What we do effects our families..."  This is all very controlling behavior, and classic cult/hidden agenda modus operendi.

It was like, "okay, Frank has been with the Group a year, so lets start indoctrinating and controlling him further."  And we see Peter becoming more and more controlling, secretive, and unquestioningly loyal to the Group and it's agenda, as season 2 rolls on.  But he is still maintaining his own convictions in the truth of the Groups vision, and he is still retaining some of his own personality and thinking, up until the very end of season 2.  In the last 2 episodes, we see him succuming to fear of the Group, and being thrown into a bit of a controlled crisis regarding his own convictions and loyalties to the group vs. what he sees now as a much darker and sinister agenda of the Group than he even knew about.

In season 3, we see that Peter has surrendered his mind almost completely to the group-think of the Group.  He has ceased to be the man whose own convictions led him to the Group, and were in line with the Group.  He has now become just another part of the system of the Group, having completely succumed to the dogma, ideology, and fear/threat/control manipulations of the Group.  He is now just another part of its machinery, if you will.  It is not until the end of the season that we see him realizing what he has become, and what the Group really is.

Over all, my theory is that Peter was put through the same process as Frank, in terms of Group indoctrination, secretiveness, and manipulation.  The difference is, that Frank was a free thinker, he never completely succumed to the group-think of the Group.  I mean, yes, his whole life did become consumed by working for the Group and the cases he worked on.  But, he never completely surrendered his identy, he continued to question, to be his own person, and to retain his own thinking.  I think Peter, on the other hand, was just the opposite.  I think he was easily indoctrinated by the Group, in the course of there standard cult procedures.

That's it as far as my take on the Peter, friend or foe question.  Personally, I think it is a question of Peter Watts, "Victim or Perpetrator (ie, of the Group agenda, etc)"?  Also, Peter Watts certainly is not just your average supportive role or antagonist role.  He is very complex, complicated, and intricately developed.

And, BTW, I do not think it was Peter on the floor behind his desk in a pool of blood.  I think that was the Group assasin sent to kill him.  I did not think this at first, but as time has gone on, and I have observed more, analyzed the episodes more, and discussed it with others, the more I have become convinced that if there was a forth season, we would have seen Peter show up at some point.  And, I think he would have been Franks ally again, but I also think he would be a free agent of sorts, with his own enigmatic agenda.  Sort of like Krycek in The X-Files, only not in the opportunist, cut-throat, and scruppelless manner of that character.  However I think there would have been another similarity with the Krycek character.  Just like the Krycek character was out for vengence against the secretive Cyndicate/Board, that ran the hidden agenda/conspiracy in the X-Files... I think Peter would be out for vengence against the Group.

Just some more thoughts that occurred to me through his thread!  That is why, in the words of early nineties Burger King adds, staring the extreme sports guy from MTV, "I LOVE THIS PLACE!"

GREAT TOPIC AND RESULTING THREAD!!!

Scott

[Guest TheSunKing1972]

And, BTW, I do not think it was Peter on the floor behind his desk in a pool of blood.  I think that was the Group assasin sent to kill him.  I did not think this at first, but as time has gone on, and I have observed more, analyzed the episodes more, and discussed it with others, the more I have become convinced that if there was a forth season, we would have seen Peter show up at some point.  And, I think he would have been Franks ally again, but I also think he would be a free agent of sorts, with his own enigmatic agenda.  Sort of like Krycek in The X-Files, only not in the opportunist, cut-throat, and scruppelless manner of that character.  However I think there would have been another similarity with the Krycek character.  Just like the Krycek character was out for vengence against the secretive Cyndicate/Board, that ran the hidden agenda/conspiracy in the X-Files... I think Peter would be out for vengence against the Group.

Just some more thoughts that occurred to me through his thread!  That is why, in the words of early nineties Burger King adds, staring the extreme sports guy from MTV, "I LOVE THIS PLACE!"

GREAT TOPIC AND RESULTING THREAD!!!

Scott

yeah, I am glad to get 2 GREAT replies on this topic.  

As far as Watts and Franks relationship:

We see season three very differently....I think Peter was starting to think the way Frank did about the Group and they would soon BOTH be banging heads against the group.

I figured that most fans wouldn't think that was Watts lying there dead. My take on season 4 would be Frank and Watts trying to bring the group down.....the end didn't come because they're forces behind the scenes that stopped it, but just because it didn't happen then...doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

[Bardo Thodol]

King,

first, just a businessness note.  You will notice I edited you last reply.  The only thing I did was fix the "smilie" because it wasn't showing (just the code for it).

Now, wouldn't it have been great to see a 4th season like that.  With Frank and Peter teamed up.  I mean they could still have some tension between them because of all that went on in season 2 and 3, which I think would have added some much to the already complex relationship that they had.  It would be cool to see them working together on a whole new level.  Then, add to this the fact that the Group was heading for getting Emma into a position where they could manipulate her (because of her father), and use her in her capacity as the new Assistant Director of that departement.  You could have that whole situation... Emma walking a fine line between doing what she had to do in terms of her association with the Group, and still trying to help Frank.  Then, how bout  Emma dealing with Peter after the whole season 3 situtations!  It would be a perfect 1013 situation... where you are not sure who to trust, or when to trust, or what people are really up to, but you have to work with them, etc.  Kind of like the way it was between Skully, Mulder and Skinner in the earlier seasons.  You had Mulder not really trusting Skully, and you had Skully and Mulder not really trusting Skinner.  And you had the whole relationship of Skinner to the CSM, etc.  That is kind of what it would be like in what I would envision in season 4 with Emma, Frank, and Watts.   And somehow it all moving toward them trying to bring down the Group, or exposing the Group.  And in the meantime... all the millennial undercurrents heading toward 2000, and 5/5/2000, and midnight december 31 2001, etc.

It is really a shame they couldn't pull off one more season from the Fox execs.

Scott

[Guest]

...i think that emma would have been frank's "mole" both in the group and in the FBI in a season-4. if you remember emma DID end up changing her mind about her father's surgery at the last moment only to be tragicly too late to stop anything.

 ...i also think emma's father would have been bumped up to  a more regularly recurring character in a S4 as it's obvious that he knew about the group by his telling emma after he was "cured" :...you shouldn't have done this,you shouldn't have done what they asked,emma."    to put it more bluntly,i seriously doubt that emma would have EVER gotten brainwashed by the group. and i.............................oh hell i could go on all night about my theories for a S4      ...anyway those are a mere "few" of my opinions for a 4th season!  !

                        ~pales of of peace,

                                               se7en

[Raven Wolf]

Sun King,

 First, let me say, "Welcome to the group!"  It's so good to have another passionate minded person here.

 Secondly, let me echo your sentimants about Watts.  I alwas found him to be a fasinating caracter, and it seemed he was in the same position as Walter Skinner on The X Files.... trying to ride the fence, but coming through in the end.  One instanse that comes to mind is in one of my favorite episodes, "Luminary", in which Frank must take a stand for what he beleaves in, even though it means going against everyone else...a role I often find myself in in this life!

 In the end, Peter came through for Frank & went to find him in Alaska, probably saving the young teenage boy.

 Just my 2 cents worth!

RAVEN WOLF