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i was looking at the new screen shots so wonderfully done by chrisnu....i came across the digital clock that read 2:13, just before Frank is visited by the succubus...knowing that Carter/1013 do things intentionally, i did some research and i think the time we see is referring to Revelations 2:13

"I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth".

i figured you guys probably knew already, anyway, thanks to Chrisnu for the great pics..

The Fourth Horseman

"And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him." REV 6:8

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Guest chrisnu

I believe it to be intentional. Frank encounters the reference to Rev. 2:13 during his initial research. Interestingly enough, the words "Beware! Slow down!" occur on the page right after the reference. Those elements certainly give the episode longevity beyond the initial viewing.

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Well, I knew about this and posted about it a couple of months ago, but it's a great catch anyway, Fourth! :b_wink:

Lol,

dbsd

DBSD - like i said..i figured someone had seen the link before, thats why my post came with the disclaimer!! LOL...

"And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him." REV 6:8

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i knew, i seem to recall from MM dialogue itself, that Antipas was "an allusion to Satan in the book of Revelations." once i searched for it and highlighted it, but never remember the chapter and verse. those crime scene photos from that ep always make me smile when i'm ordering antipasti at a restaurant :frank_black: "you called me on a case because of appetizers?

on a tangential note that bit of knowledge worked into conversation last year. my roommate (in the American sense) was and is a Mormon (but obviously no longer my roommate) and somehow not only the Bible, but Revelations and even Antipas came up in conversation. i think she may have been reading from the additional Mormon text (bad roommate - i can't remember the name at the moment; it's a good idea to sleep for more than four hours a night) and wanted to read me a passage which included the word Antipas. she stopped reading as an aside to explain that Antipas is a name/character in the Bible, to which i replied that it's, as above, "an allusion to Satan in the book of Revelations." as i'm an atheist and she knows, she was taken aback. she said something like 'i'm supposed to be the one with the random Biblical knowledge."

i just shrugged.

- nothing, "an allusion to Frank's abilities in the episode of the pilot"

believes...

this is who we are

we can't just sit back and hope for a happy ending

i couldn't swear it wasn't just an incredibly realistic simulation. not just the scenery, my whole life.

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For me this episode was very well done, and as Fourth and others point out, there are many sedimented references and links to aspects of the shows fundamental themes that will keep one drawing linkages and possibilities long after its initial viewing. The obvious ones like the snake as Satan were well done even if cliche. The succubus aspect, is for me the most important element in this episode, and I think is a key to explaining a great deal of at least one of the show's overarching linking elements. This element is the inability to possess a gift and use it often and to its maximal capacity while simultaneously becomming attached (good or bad). We have discussed Frank and Catherine's relationship at length, and perhaps it is time to revisit this. In the case of Antipas, Frank walks the fine line between becomming attached to the capture and understanding of the demonic Lucy Butler while at the same time acknowledging that "she will never be dead" or more succinctly [evil will always be alive]. The end sequence of Lucy in the hospital was great acting by Sarah Jane Redmond in particular, harkening me back to memories of Naomi Watts in 21 Grams. The reference to Jordan as a source of 'fear' for Frank is excellent. One must remember here though that the relationship between Jordan and Frank is non-reciprocal. That is, Frank is responsible for Jordan's safety and well-being, growth and development. Jordan, as a child, is not expected to act in a reciprocal fashion to Frank (that would invert to some degree the parent-child relationship which is non-reciprocal). This does not represent a reciprocal relationship in which partners share with each other---this is the type of relationship that Frank can't manage while maximizing and using his gift (cf. Rilke thread in 'Heart of Darkness'). The issue of Lucy Butler, and the confrontation with Evil--the most basic element of this show--are perfect fodder for the MM movie. Any movie done would be stupid not to expand on this good-vs-evil matchup. It includes all the relevant aspects of the show in terms of murder, mayham, religion while avoiding dicey aspects of the show which may have been tangenital escapades down dead-end streets (e.g., group origins, confrontations etc.).

post-1148-1129476388_thumb.jpg

A thought expressed by William James in 1902 and quoted by Wells deserves renewed attention: [Cleckley, 1988 5th edition]

Yonder puny fellow however, whom everyone can beat suffers no chagrin about it, for he has long ago abandoned the attempt to “carry that line,” as the merchants say, of Self at all. With no attempt there can be no failure; with no failure, no humiliation. So our self-feeling in this world depends entirely on what we back ourselves to be and do. It is determined by the ratio of our actualities to our supposed potentialities; a fraction of which our pretensions are the denominator and the numerator our success: thus, self-esteem = Success/Pretensions. Such a fraction may be increased as well by diminishing the denominator as by increasing the numerator. To give up pretensions is as blessed a relief as to get them gratified; and where disappointment is incessant and the struggle unending, this is what men will always do. The history of evangelical theology, with its conviction of sin, its self-despair, and its abandonment of salvation by works, is the deepest of all possible examples, but we meet others in every walk of life….How pleasant is the day when we give up striving to be young—or slender! Thank God! We say, those illusions are gone. Everything added to the self is a burden as well as a pride.

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For me this episode was very well done, and as Fourth and others point out, there are many sedimented references and links to aspects of the shows fundamental themes that will keep one drawing linkages and possibilities long after its initial viewing. The obvious ones like the snake as Satan were well done even if cliche. The succubus aspect, is for me the most important element in this episode, and I think is a key to explaining a great deal of at least one of the show's overarching linking elements. This element is the inability to possess a gift and use it often and to its maximal capacity while simultaneously becomming attached (good or bad). We have discussed Frank and Catherine's relationship at length, and perhaps it is time to revisit this. In the case of Antipas, Frank walks the fine line between becomming attached to the capture and understanding of the demonic Lucy Butler while at the same time acknowledging that "she will never be dead" or more succinctly [evil will always be alive]. The end sequence of Lucy in the hospital was great acting by Sarah Jane Redmond in particular, harkening me back to memories of Naomi Watts in 21 Grams. The reference to Jordan as a source of 'fear' for Frank is excellent. One must remember here though that the relationship between Jordan and Frank is non-reciprocal. That is, Frank is responsible for Jordan's safety and well-being, growth and development. Jordan, as a child, is not expected to act in a reciprocal fashion to Frank (that would invert to some degree the parent-child relationship which is non-reciprocal). This does not represent a reciprocal relationship in which partners share with each other---this is the type of relationship that Frank can't manage while maximizing and using his gift (cf. Rilke thread in 'Heart of Darkness'). The issue of Lucy Butler, and the confrontation with Evil--the most basic element of this show--are perfect fodder for the MM movie. Any movie done would be stupid not to expand on this good-vs-evil matchup. It includes all the relevant aspects of the show in terms of murder, mayham, religion while avoiding dicey aspects of the show which may have been tangenital escapades down dead-end streets (e.g., group origins, confrontations etc.).

and i dont need a weathervane to tell which way the wind is blowin...

Vain68...another indepth, wonderful thread...good job...in an offbeat aspect of Antipas...was there a veiled reference to the movie se7en in the scene where the grossly obese person was found face down in a bowl of spaghetti? If i remember, isnt that the exact same position that Pitt and Freeman found the gluttony sinner in?....hmmm....one wonders....

"And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him." REV 6:8

fourthhorsemananimatedsigna3rr.gif

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was there a veiled reference to the movie se7en in the scene where the grossly obese person was found face down in a bowl of spaghetti? If i remember, isnt that the exact same position that Pitt and Freeman found the gluttony sinner in?....hmmm....one wonders....

Most clearly; as noted many times, Carter mentions Se7en as an strong influence on MM.

Vv

A thought expressed by William James in 1902 and quoted by Wells deserves renewed attention: [Cleckley, 1988 5th edition]

Yonder puny fellow however, whom everyone can beat suffers no chagrin about it, for he has long ago abandoned the attempt to “carry that line,” as the merchants say, of Self at all. With no attempt there can be no failure; with no failure, no humiliation. So our self-feeling in this world depends entirely on what we back ourselves to be and do. It is determined by the ratio of our actualities to our supposed potentialities; a fraction of which our pretensions are the denominator and the numerator our success: thus, self-esteem = Success/Pretensions. Such a fraction may be increased as well by diminishing the denominator as by increasing the numerator. To give up pretensions is as blessed a relief as to get them gratified; and where disappointment is incessant and the struggle unending, this is what men will always do. The history of evangelical theology, with its conviction of sin, its self-despair, and its abandonment of salvation by works, is the deepest of all possible examples, but we meet others in every walk of life….How pleasant is the day when we give up striving to be young—or slender! Thank God! We say, those illusions are gone. Everything added to the self is a burden as well as a pride.

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