A Chinese hello

[Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___]

Yes, hard to say why they went in the direction they did. One possible reason is that I don't think Millennium ever had the kind of ratings and popularity that the X-files had, and maybe they thought the change in direction would keep people tuned in to find out what was going to happen. This is also the kind of stuff that gets people talking around the water cooler and draws new viewers or people who might have seen the show, but are not committed to the show as regular viewers. It's kind of like with a musical artist. If the artist puts out a debut album that gets rave reviews, many times they are ripped if they put out essentially the same album for their second effort. I guess it just comes down to the simple fact that all shows have to determine a direction that feels right and that they think is going to benifit the series. The powers that be chose a direction for Millennium, and it did not sit well with everyone. For some reason, I just enjoyed and accepted it as it went, but I can definitely see where some would have issues with it. Also, I think there is the matter of Frank being too good of a good guy to participate in the Millennium group. As we see in "The Time Is Now" and "Skull and Bones", it is spelled right out for us in speeches by Millennium group members, first with an elder group member that we have not seen before ("The Time Is Now", I believe), and then with Peter in "Skull and Bones" as they explain that Millennium group is interested in the survival of the country and the human race as a whole, and that the life of a single individual is inconsequential and so on. Peter also explains that certain things have to be done to allow this to happen. Any group that is a bunch of goody goods in this world is not going to be strong enough to achieve the objectives of the Millennium group. I think, given the impact that the group wanted to have on mankind, it would have been far more unbelievable if they were depicted as collection of boy scouts. I don't think season two was as much intended as a change in direction in the group as it was exposing them for what they were and had been all along.

Hmmm, very insightful MIB I hadn't thought about it that way before; I've never cared for the change in the group either as noted in an earlier post above, but what you say casts a better slant on it, perhaps exposing them for what they were all along... VERY good!

[Guest Django]

I think ratings is an excellent point to bring up about why Millennium changed from season 1 to season 2. At the time Fox was still an up & coming network. Its hits were The Simpsons, X-Files, & Melrose Place. The X-Files was making its way into pop culture & Fox rewarded Chris Carter with another show. Fox needed the show to be a hit far more than Carter needed did. They took a chance & gave Carter almost free reign on what he could make. Millennium was far darker & serious than the light hearted X-Files. At this time X-Files was hitting its stride & getting lots of buzz with episodes like Jose Chung & Home. After the first season the audience didn't tune in week in & out like they did with the X-Files. In a move to garner ratings I think M&W were brought in since they were the golden boys of the X-Files. I guess what really bothers me about season 2 is the transparency of that kind of move. Here Fox gives Carter a wonderful opportunity to do something different & he delivers. However when push comes to shove Fox chickens out & tries to make Millennium into something more similar to their other hit.

At the time Millennium was unique. There were no shows on TV quite like it. Had Fox not been so desperate to court a younger audience they could have seen they had an audience that would have skewed older but been very loyal. Nowadays there is darker subject matter on TV & I wonder how well Millennium could do if properly marketed without trying to piggy back on the X-Files. I enjoyed the daring of season 1 & how different it was. I tuned in because of that. After the season 2 change it was a case of "been there done that" & unfortunately X-Files I felt did a better job of it.

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Hmmm, very insightful MIB I hadn't thought about it that way before; I've never cared for the change in the group either as noted in an earlier post above, but what you say casts a better slant on it, perhaps exposing them for what they were all along... VERY good!

Thank you, and it is good to be back after the day off yesterday. So far, everything about the board seems the same, but it will be interesting to see if I notice any subtle differences while navigating the board.

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Yeah, I guess I do agree with you about Season 2; I suppose I was trying to be inclusive and objective specifically from the standpoint of making the MOST people happy. But, personally, I totally agree with you on this one. I was basically trying to draw parallels between what OTHERS have said was done wrong in Season 2 and what you and others have also said what was done wrong in Season 3. So, I was thinking that to preserve continuity and consistancy (which to me personally REALLY doesn't matter very much, but I KNOW from others' comments that it REALLY bothers some here) throughout the ENTIRE series, I figured that if both seasons had their 'deviations' corrected, then everyone would have been happier overall. But, YES, strictly from a personal standpoint, I couldn't care less about the continuity or staying with the original premise; the creative and artistic religious and mythological highs of Season 2 stand alone as awesome story telling and extremely entertaining television. And, to me personally, what they did to the Group and Peter in the 3rd Season is far more annoying, BUT they still did come up with some great stories in and of themselves in that season, so there you go

Hmm, somehow I lost another post. I guess what I was saying is that I agree with what you say, and I realize that you were attempting to speak from the perspective of the hypothetical collective consciousness of all Millennium fans.

[Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___]

Hmm, somehow I lost another post. I guess what I was saying is that I agree with what you say, and I realize that you were attempting to speak from the perspective of the hypothetical collective consciousness of all Millennium fans.

Yeah, it seems like a number of our efforts have been falling off the board here... Shame...

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Yeah, it seems like a number of our efforts have been falling off the board here... Shame...

Yes, but it seems as though we have gotten pretty stable again. I don't think I'm going to try to dig through the old threads though, I'm just going to start anew. In fact, I think I am going to change my name to Steve Ventoux.

[HighPlainsDrifter]

i think the board broke when i posted the picture of the L@the of Heaven Doll

[Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___]

i think the board broke when i posted the picture of the L@the of Heaven Doll

All right you guys, behave, or I'll dispatch 4thDONKEY!!!

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

When adding the conspiracy stuff to the group I think it did so at the expense of Peter. Peter is seen as a family man yet can anyone blame Frank's hatred toward the group after what happened to Catherine? Somehow Peter couldn't understand Frank's anger, which I found unconvincing. I thought it made little sense that this conspiracy would keep tabs on a serial killer targeting someone they wanted to join their ranks. Then he somehow gives them the slip & kidnaps Catherine, yet they seem surprised when Frank can not trust them. Add the season ending episode & really there is no way the Frank from season one could ever get over this. Peter seems unreasonable & under blind devotion instead of the smart & calculating man from season 1. After the episode where his daughter is kidnapped he should have been just as angry at the group as Frank but by then Watts had become more of a bogeyman than a real character.

What's funny is that O'Quinn has a role now where he gets to convey deep faith, devotion & betrayal. Lost's John Locke is similar to Peter Watts but he has far more depth. By pushing the conspiracy stuff Watts was marginalized & I think the character of John Locke shows how much more O'Quinn had to offer.

Hey, I ran across a post that was lost that I e-mailed to myself to complete after I got my laundry:

Hmm, this is a very complicated post to respond to. At one point, this thread had kind of become a debate about season two and Morgan & Wong, but your post is more of a knock on both seasons two and three. In regard to the change of Peter's character, I kind of had the same feeling about that as I did with the Millennium group being depicted in a more sinister manner as the series progressed. For some reason, I just accepted it as it came. The only thing that would have really bothered me, I think, is if they started to compromise the integrity of Frank's character, and they never did. From start to finish, Frank was always justified in his motives, and a true "good guy" character. I don't think, however, that it was as much a case of Peter not understanding Frank's anger as it was that he didn't think Frank had a rational view of the Millennium group's involvement in Catherine's death.

The complicated part is that, while I defend Morgan and Wong and season two, and while I very much enjoyed season three, I am not one to come to the defense of season three and the season three writers. I think season three is the season where Peter is transformed into a more sinister and villainous character. In season two, we begin with "The Beginning and the End". While we are starting to see the Millennium group in a more ominous light, you have to remember that Peter, while being responsible for taking Frank under his wing and bringing him into the group, is actually not at the highest ranks of the Millennium group, and therefore, Peter himself was probably not authorized to tell Frank about the Polaroid man, and it is possible that they had their eyes on many different people, and had no way of knowing how much of a threat he was. Even the Millennium group can't surveil every person who they felt was a possible threat. As season two progresses, we see Peter Watts as more of an ally and friend to Frank. In Luminary, we see Peter on the phone with Frank and looking up to an elder MM group member for the OK to help Frank. The elder shakes his head no, and Frank is on his own. I don't think it is clear if Peter is working on his own or not, but he later heads to Alaska to help Frank. Throughout season two, Peter is generally written as a good guy, and even in the final two episodes, we see that Peter is not aware of some of the things that are going on inside the group. He is starting to question their motives, and we see him having to break into the database with the Old Mans password to get information about the Marburg virus. At this point, Watts seems more afraid of the groups motives than a participant in them, and even fears that he would be killed if he investigated the group. Even in the final season two episode, "The Time Is Now", we see Frank and Peter teaming up as Frank tells Peter to get Lara and meat up with him at the house. At this point, when we see Peter in a skirmish with other group members as he tries to get Lara, his loyalty seems to lean more towards Frank and Lara than to the group, and given this, it does seem a little strange that Frank is so hostile towards Peter in the beginning of season 3. It is not until season three, and probably "Skull and Bones" that we see Peter emerging as a villain, and this is expanded upon in episodes like Collateral Damage and Bardo Thodol. So, I guess I do kind of agree that Peter Watts character was turned into a "bogeyman", but not until we get well into season three, long after M & W have departed.

[Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___]

Hey, I ran across a post that was lost that I e-mailed to myself to complete after I got my laundry:

Hmm, this is a very complicated post to respond to. At one point, this thread had kind of become a debate about season two and Morgan & Wong, but your post is more of a knock on both seasons two and three. In regard to the change of Peter's character, I kind of had the same feeling about that as I did with the Millennium group being depicted in a more sinister manner as the series progressed. For some reason, I just accepted it as it came. The only thing that would have really bothered me, I think, is if they started to compromise the integrity of Frank's character, and they never did. From start to finish, Frank was always justified in his motives, and a true "good guy" character. I don't think, however, that it was as much a case of Peter not understanding Frank's anger as it was that he didn't think Frank had a rational view of the Millennium group's involvement in Catherine's death.

The complicated part is that, while I defend Morgan and Wong and season two, and while I very much enjoyed season three, I am not one to come to the defense of season three and the season three writers. I think season three is the season where Peter is transformed into a more sinister and villainous character. In season two, we begin with "The Beginning and the End". While we are starting to see the Millennium group in a more ominous light, you have to remember that Peter, while being responsible for taking Frank under his wing and bringing him into the group, is actually not at the highest ranks of the Millennium group, and therefore, Peter himself was probably not authorized to tell Frank about the Polaroid man, and it is possible that they had their eyes on many different people, and had no way of knowing how much of a threat he was. Even the Millennium group can't surveil every person who they felt was a possible threat. As season two progresses, we see Peter Watts as more of an ally and friend to Frank. In Luminary, we see Peter on the phone with Frank and looking up to an elder MM group member for the OK to help Frank. The elder shakes his head no, and Frank is on his own. I don't think it is clear if Peter is working on his own or not, but he later heads to Alaska to help Frank. Throughout season two, Peter is generally written as a good guy, and even in the final two episodes, we see that Peter is not aware of some of the things that are going on inside the group. He is starting to question their motives, and we see him having to break into the database with the Old Mans password to get information about the Marburg virus. At this point, Watts seems more afraid of the groups motives than a participant in them, and even fears that he would be killed if he investigated the group. Even in the final season two episode, "The Time Is Now", we see Frank and Peter teaming up as Frank tells Peter to get Lara and meat up with him at the house. At this point, when we see Peter in a skirmish with other group members as he tries to get Lara, his loyalty seems to lean more towards Frank and Lara than to the group, and given this, it does seem a little strange that Frank is so hostile towards Peter in the beginning of season 3. It is not until season three, and probably "Skull and Bones" that we see Peter emerging as a villain, and this is expanded upon in episodes like Collateral Damage and Bardo Thodol. So, I guess I do kind of agree that Peter Watts character was turned into a "bogeyman", but not until we get well into season three, long after M & W have departed.

YES, this was a great post! I remember this one! EXCELLENT! (Uh..., I AM trying to forget about the 'L@the action figure comment... ) Seriously though, this is the EXACT post that inspired me to continue with further thoughts along these lines (another GREAT post that was suspiciously lost... ) But, I REALLY like what you brought out especially about how Peter was helping Frank all along, even right up to when Catherine died at the end of Season 2. And then, what? All of the sudden Frank and Peter are at complete odds with one another as we enter the 3rd Season...??? Huh uh..., I don't buy it at all.

I do remember a few of the things that I had mentioned too along these lines; mainly that yes, M & W did take great liberties with the story lines and mythology of the Group, etc. However, it was IN THE 3rd SEASON where all these really ABRUPT changes took place in Peter's attitude toward Frank, Franks apparent hostility toward him coming from out of nowhere, and the Groups sudden abrupt evil turn...

I think my argument for Season 3 has to be similar to those who argue about Season 2, many of the stories individually were great, but the major 'CHANGES', particularly in established characters, were too jarring. I guess as I had mentioned in these ealier posts, in all fairness, if we who REALLY like Season 2 and those who REALLY like Season 3 just kinda roll with the changes at both ends and just enjoy the great stories, that probably would be most equitable I would think.