Why do you like 'The Hand of Saint Sebastian'?

[Guest Faustus]

Well to start with I don't think I can really agree with much that has been said so far. Season two really made Millennium what it was in terms of a special show. The whole season, and these episodes in particular, really raised it above the normal convention by dealing with such topics (heaven, hell, good, evil) and made it more than just a "Law and Order" clone which, I'm sorry to say, season three really was.

There seems to be too much analysis from the perspective of a post-match run down. It you look at season two in terms of the greater narratology of the series, it's a natural and proper progression, far from the discordant break which has been suggested. Season one sets up the scenario and provides the groundwork by alluding to the biblical and philosophical issues brought forth in season two. The writers allowed the viewers to join Frank as more and more slowly the true nature of things were revealed. This made in so gripping.

These episodes gave the Millennium group a deep and rich history. I can't agree with the argument that season two drifted away from C.C conception of the Millennium group because his conception was so vaguely and ill defined to be of little use. In season one it was merely part of the plot device to keep Frank investigating. It wasn't until season two where it gained unique and innovative character and became a force in it's own right. I also think the Indiana Jones comparison in pretty facile considering the depth of those episodes. They blew out the scope of the show.

In doing this they did something extraordinary by actually grappling with deeper philosophical issues such as what is the nature of good and evil. Instead of offering a justification for evil, Morgan and Wong instead asked the viewers to place themselves in the conflict. They ask us if we were as intimate with evil as Frank Black is, what would we do? Would we be strong enough? Instead of offering the standard cop show response ("Man is an evil creature capable of bad thing. Man society sucks. Stay tuned for more next week') they delved deeper.

And there is no way you can't fault these episodes artistically, whether it be cinematography or music.

I will grant you that the end of season two was pretty extreme and I personally didn't like it that much, but I think it has far more to with production politics and egos than anything else. I really don't rate Chris Carter as a writer. Sure his ideas and production skills are great, but as far as his shows go, he did not write the best episodes. Two examples: X-Files the movie was crass commercialism at its finest and his "Millennium" episode of the X-Files was just terrible. Even Lance agreed. Steering the show back to season three like he did was like being on the edge of a precept and deciding to turn back at the last minute; to take the safe option.

Oh and you can’t tell me that by naming the show “Millennium” and using all that doomsday hype that he wasn’t infusing it with biblical and supernatural overtones,

But then again these are just my opinion. But I can't wait to hear your responses.

Faustus.

[Guest se7en]

Well to start with I don't think I can really agree with much that has been said so far. Season two really made Millennium what it was in terms of a special show. The whole season, and these episodes in particular, really raised it above the normal convention by dealing with such topics (heaven, hell, good, evil) and made it more than just a "Law and Order" clone which, I'm sorry to say, season three really was.

There seems to be too much analysis from the perspective of a post-match run down. It you look at season two in terms of the greater narratology of the series, it's a natural and proper progression, far from the discordant break which has been suggested. Season one sets up the scenario and provides the groundwork by alluding to the biblical and philosophical issues brought forth in season two. The writers allowed the viewers to join Frank as more and more slowly the true nature of things were revealed. This made in so gripping.

These episodes gave the Millennium group a deep and rich history. I can't agree with the argument that season two drifted away from C.C conception of the Millennium group because his conception was so vaguely and ill defined to be of little use. In season one it was merely part of the plot device to keep Frank investigating. It wasn't until season two where it gained unique and innovative character and became a force in it's own right. I also think the Indiana Jones comparison in pretty facile considering the depth of those episodes. They blew out the scope of the show.

In doing this they did something extraordinary by actually grappling with deeper philosophical issues such as what is the nature of good and evil. Instead of offering a justification for evil, Morgan and Wong instead asked the viewers to place themselves in the conflict. They ask us if we were as intimate with evil as Frank Black is, what would we do? Would we be strong enough? Instead of offering the standard cop show response ("Man is an evil creature capable of bad thing. Man society sucks. Stay tuned for more next week') they delved deeper.

And there is no way you can't fault these episodes artistically, whether it be cinematography or music.

I will grant you that the end of season two was pretty extreme and I personally didn't like it that much, but I think it has far more to with production politics and egos than anything else. I really don't rate Chris Carter as a writer. Sure his ideas and production skills are great, but as far as his shows go, he did not write the best episodes. Two examples: X-Files the movie was crass commercialism at its finest and his "Millennium" episode of the X-Files was just terrible. Even Lance agreed. Steering the show back to season three like he did was like being on the edge of a precept and deciding to turn back at the last minute; to take the safe option.

Oh and you can’t tell me that by naming the show “Millennium” and using all that doomsday hype that he wasn’t infusing it with biblical and supernatural overtones,

But then again these are just my opinion. But I can't wait to hear your responses.

Faustus.

..YOU LOST ME WITH THE WHOLE S3 WAS A LAW&ORDER CLONE? it had absolutely nothing do to with law and order or any of it's themes. nothing! S3 redeemed a show barely hanging by a thread because of the end of S2,in which many parts were poorly regarded by both C.C. and especially Lance Henriksen. one partial quote i can bring out by henriksen,that equals the sentiments of many of us is:the followng statement in a tv-guide online interview>L.H.: "A lot of what happened in season-2 was not what i signed on for to do;The Millennium Group is based on a real investigative group called "the Academy". It was never,nor should never [have been] turned into a secret society and cult! Season-2 just lacked,in part, the subtlety and intelligence,the cohesiveness of season-1". "I much prefer season 1 and the stuff we are working on now in season-3,which is very intense in that i never know what to expect from these guys! I think we are on a roll though now,and a season 4 will only build on that.">

...i still love most of S2 but i "DO" agree with that statement about subtlety and cohesiveness. ...it's fine if you hate season-3,though i'm happy it's finally getting the recognition it so well deserves,but i am honest to god bewildered by your comparison of S3 MM to LAW&ORDER. even if i did not care for S3 i would still be stumped by that comparison(??) ...are you saying this because Michael Duggan was briefly involved in S3,and the fact that he is from Law & Order? that's the only thing i can think of that even remotely compares the 2. to make matters worse for my poor brain i am also a Law & order Fan.

..i certainly respect your opinion but i just cannot understand where it comes from or what it is based on.

...BTW: C.C. had nothing to do with the MillenniuM crossover episode on XF,THANK GOD! that can be blamed on Paul Rabwin and Frank Spotnitz(?)

.i also think that C.C. wrote/co-wrote some episodes of the scariest television i have EVER seen thus far in my near 34 years on this wacky planet,and all were on MM. for me the scariest things he wrote/cowrote are: "PILOT/200","LAMANTATION" and "SEVEN AND ONE" and "ANTIPAS". his best writting ever,for me,was his peabody award winning script for S1's "The Well Worn Lock"

~PEACE,

se7en

[Guest Faustus]

..YOU LOST ME WITH THE WHOLE S3 WAS A LAW&ORDER CLONE?    it had absolutely nothing do to with law and order or any of it's themes. nothing! S3 redeemed a show barely hanging by a thread because of the end of S2,in which many parts were poorly regarded by both C.C. and especially Lance Henriksen.  one partial quote i can bring out  by henriksen,that equals the sentiments of many of us is:the followng statement in a tv-guide online interview>L.H.: "A lot of what happened in season-2 was not what i signed on for to do;The Millennium Group is based on a real investigative group called "the Academy". It was never,nor should never [have been] turned into a secret society and cult! Season-2 just lacked,in part, the subtlety and intelligence,the cohesiveness of season-1". "I much prefer season 1 and the stuff we are working on now in season-3,which is very intense in that i never know what to expect from these guys! I think we are on a roll though now,and a season 4 will only build on that.">

         

          ...i still love most of S2 but i "DO" agree with that statement about subtlety and cohesiveness.        ...it's fine if you hate season-3,though i'm happy it's finally getting the recognition it so well deserves,but i am honest to god bewildered by your comparison of S3 MM to LAW&ORDER.  even if i did not care for S3 i would still be stumped by that comparison(??) ...are you saying this because Michael Duggan was briefly involved in S3,and the fact that he is from Law & Order? that's the only thing i can think of that even remotely compares the 2.  to make matters worse for my poor brain i am also a Law & order Fan.  

                ..i certainly respect your opinion but i just cannot understand where it comes from or what it is based on.

    ...BTW: C.C. had nothing to do with the MillenniuM crossover episode on XF,THANK GOD! that can be blamed on Paul Rabwin and Frank Spotnitz(?)

.i also think that C.C. wrote/co-wrote some episodes of the scariest television i have EVER seen thus far in my near 34 years on this wacky planet,and all were on MM. for me the scariest things he wrote/cowrote are: "PILOT/200","LAMANTATION" and "SEVEN AND ONE" and "ANTIPAS". his best writting ever,for me,was his peabody award winning script for S1's "The Well Worn Lock"

                                                        ~PEACE,

                                                                  se7en

Well OK. Perhaps the "Law and Order" jibe was a bit harsh. I'm not one of those fans who outright hate season three, but it just seemed to me a bit of a cop out (no pun intended). I made the comparison because it went back to the standard 2 investigators solving a crime a week format. I didn’t see a lot of cohesiveness in the season at the whole, but that's probably more my fault. So many different writers didn't help I guess.

But as for the Lance quote, well he's an actor. That's his opinion. I guess he and I were looking for different things. However, as he is an actor, and given the acrimonious problems at the end of season two, I'm not surprised he would be towing the party line. It's a standard promotional sound bite for the show. He's even optimistically looking forward to season four.

And as for Chris Carter, well the episodes you list are pretty good, and some of them are my favourites as well, but I'm just not sure his influence was always beneficial.

Now a Millennium/Law and Order would be cool. I'd be into that.

Faustus.

[SadEyes]

My personal favourite season would be season 2. Of course I like the other seasons too, but with the whole plot unfolding in the second season I was thrilled more than on season one or three. Chris Carter left Millennium after the first season, he just gave his name for season two and three. I think Morgan and Wong created a dimension of MM that Carter never itended it to be. "Hand of Saint Sebastian", to return to the topic, is an episode which I like specially because it is set in my homecountry Germany What I don´t like about it, is the great amount of action-scenes, they don´t seem to fit at all into the show. But with episodes like "Owls/Roosters", "Luminary", "The Curse of Frank Black", "Midnight of the century" and "Fourth Horseman/The Time is now" the second season came off with the best I´ve ever seen on TV.

Alex

[Guest se7en]

...there's no doubt in my mind that season-2 is worthy,there are just too many good-to-great eps,like "curse"/"midnight"/"mikado"/"liminary"/"beginning & end-(most of it!)-i even enjoyed the fun romp of "pest house" and the somehwat silly,but still engaging.owls/roosters.

...i was not trying using a lance quote to try and sway people about how they view a season or seasons,it was more to point out that he was against the group being turned into a cult. he's said this both during and well after the show ended. it also goes a ways to explaining why many hardcore S1-lovers abandoned MM in S2,which was responsible,"partly",for it's ratings decline. lack of promotion was also a serious problem.

except for the ending eps,and a few in between,i'm glad S2 happened. there are a lot of great qualities to it even if the direction was non-existant most of the time.

~se7en

-(imagine Frank Balck and Briscoe interrogating a perp! or Frank and goren!)

[Guest A Stranger]

Well to start with I don't think I can really agree with much that has been said so far. Season two really made Millennium what it was in terms of a special show. The whole season, and these episodes in particular, really raised it above the normal convention by dealing with such topics (heaven, hell, good, evil) and made it more than just a "Law and Order" clone which, I'm sorry to say, season three really was.

There seems to be too much analysis from the perspective of a post-match run down. It you look at season two in terms of the greater narratology of the series, it's a natural and proper progression, far from the discordant break which has been suggested. Season one sets up the scenario and provides the groundwork by alluding to the biblical and philosophical issues brought forth in season two. The writers allowed the viewers to join Frank as more and more slowly the true nature of things were revealed. This made in so gripping.

These episodes gave the Millennium group a deep and rich history. I can't agree with the argument that season two drifted away from C.C conception of the Millennium group because his conception was so vaguely and ill defined to be of little use. In season one it was merely part of the plot device to keep Frank investigating. It wasn't until season two where it gained unique and innovative character and became a force in it's own right. I also think the Indiana Jones comparison in pretty facile considering the depth of those episodes. They blew out the scope of the show.

In doing this they did something extraordinary by actually grappling with deeper philosophical issues such as what is the nature of good and evil. Instead of offering a justification for evil, Morgan and Wong instead asked the viewers to place themselves in the conflict. They ask us if we were as intimate with evil as Frank Black is, what would we do? Would we be strong enough? Instead of offering the standard cop show response ("Man is an evil creature capable of bad thing. Man society sucks. Stay tuned for more next week') they delved deeper.

And there is no way you can't fault these episodes artistically, whether it be cinematography or music.

I will grant you that the end of season two was pretty extreme and I personally didn't like it that much, but I think it has far more to with production politics and egos than anything else. I really don't rate Chris Carter as a writer. Sure his ideas and production skills are great, but as far as his shows go, he did not write the best episodes. Two examples: X-Files the movie was crass commercialism at its finest and his "Millennium" episode of the X-Files was just terrible. Even Lance agreed. Steering the show back to season three like he did was like being on the edge of a precept and deciding to turn back at the last minute; to take the safe option.

Oh and you can’t tell me that by naming the show “Millennium” and using all that doomsday hype that he wasn’t infusing it with biblical and supernatural overtones,

But then again these are just my opinion. But I can't wait to hear your responses.

Faustus.

I disagree with almost every sentance you typed, here.

[Guest Faustus]

I disagree with almost every sentance you typed, here. 

Cool. Now tell me why.

[Guest se7en]

Cool. Now tell me why.

.....LOL! .i was just coming here to say/ask the same thing!

~se7en

[Guest A Stranger]

Cool. Now tell me why.

Sorry, I'm kind of spent on this topic. I posted pretty heavily about this in the early posts and can't really conjure up the energy to get back into it. Sorry if that's a cop-out.

[Guest se7en]

Sorry, I'm kind of spent on this topic. I posted pretty heavily about this in the early posts and can't really conjure up the energy to get back into it. Sorry if that's a cop-out.

.ahh,yes you did indeed respond,quite a bit,on this topic. i would urge member Faustus,if you so choose of course,to see his earlier posts on why he fells the way he does. ...pardon my forgetfullness Stranger. on my part,anyway,and for what it's worth,it certainly is not a cop-out to me.

TAKE CARE,

se7en