Two-Parters

[Guest chrisnu]

Isn't the serial killer in "Paper Dove" actually Henry Dion, and not the Polaroid Stalker? I thought that we only saw the actual Polaroid Stalker for a few seconds.

[Guest A Stranger]

It is probably worth noting though, that 'Paper Doves' and 'The Beginning and the End' are not really a two-parter. They do follow on but the writers change for the second part and also, 'The Beginning...' is a part of S2 which as has been established over the last weeks, is coming from a very different place than S1. The Poloroid Stalker in 'Paper Doves' seems to bear no real relation to the one from 'Beginning...' so I think classifying these as a two-parter is a mistake. I must say it is HIGHLY improbable that Chris Carter and Ted Mann (who wrote 'Paper Doves') envisaged the PS as what he was in 'The Beginning...'.

I think it was just a case of Morgan and Wong being forced to address the issue of Catherine's abduction (because that was where S1 left off) and choosing to create their own take on the PS, discarding all the previous references to him - because as many people have spotted, what is said of the PS in 'Pilot' and 'Gehenna' and his actions in 'Paper Doves' seem wholly disconnected with S2's PS. I think their idea was an acceptable one but it didn't track well with the earlier evidence at all. There is no real doubt that 'The Beginning and the End' is a vastly superior episode to 'Paper Doves' but please try to remember that 'Paper Doves' is not really about the PS at all. Therefore I believe any attempt at comparison beyond superficial 'Catherine abducted, Catherine saved' to be ill-advised.

I got the impression that the PS from "Paper Dove" was some form of legion. It's clear he is connection with numerous serial killers. The PS tormenting Frank is connected with Legion in "Seven and One" so I wouldn't be suprised if that was Carter's original idea, that the PS was legion but it all got changed in season two.

[Guest se7en]

It is probably worth noting though, that 'Paper Doves' and 'The Beginning and the End' are not really a two-parter. They do follow on but the writers change for the second part and also, 'The Beginning...' is a part of S2 which as has been established over the last weeks, is coming from a very different place than S1. The Poloroid Stalker in 'Paper Doves' seems to bear no real relation to the one from 'Beginning...' so I think classifying these as a two-parter is a mistake. I must say it is HIGHLY improbable that Chris Carter and Ted Mann (who wrote 'Paper Doves') envisaged the PS as what he was in 'The Beginning...'.

I think it was just a case of Morgan and Wong being forced to address the issue of Catherine's abduction (because that was where S1 left off) and choosing to create their own take on the PS, discarding all the previous references to him - because as many people have spotted, what is said of the PS in 'Pilot' and 'Gehenna' and his actions in 'Paper Doves' seem wholly disconnected with S2's PS. I think their idea was an acceptable one but it didn't track well with the earlier evidence at all. There is no real doubt that 'The Beginning and the End' is a vastly superior episode to 'Paper Doves' but please try to remember that 'Paper Doves' is not really about the PS at all. Therefore I believe any attempt at comparison beyond superficial 'Catherine abducted, Catherine saved' to be ill-advised.

........please pardon my credits-obsession but "Paper Dove" was not co-writen by C.C. it was co-writen by Tedd Mann and the great Walon Green-(who is more famously known for writing the screenplay for the classic western movie "The Wild Bunch".)

...i would count them to be a 2-parter simply for the fact that the first ep contained a cliff-hanger not to be resolved until the next episode/season-premier.

~CHEERS,

se7en

[Guest ModernDayMoriarty]

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that CC did have a hand in 'Paper Doves' because I know he didn't. Rather he came up with the PS in 'Pilot' and 'Gehenna' and Tedd Mann picked up on it in 'Paper Doves' for the finale. It is a two parter in that the abduction is resolved but that occurs in the last few seconds of 'Paper Doves' so it cannot really be said that the two are connected in any real way beyond that. The Stalker IS in 'Paper Doves' as I have said but he is so wholly unlike the PS in 'The Beginning...' that it doesn't hang together at all. Morgan and Wong's PS is quite interesting but the critic of Millennium writing on these episodes has to try and make connections between the two that I think simply were not there. I think, as I have said, that Morgan and Wong were asking the indulgence of the auidence in a few changes to make their idea work.

[Guest chrisnu]

Some short thoughts on my likes/dislikes:

"Lamentation"/"PPTD": Definitely one of the crowning moments for the series. The prime example of Frank's battle against a supernatural evil. The character of Lucy Butler is very effective, and proves to be a very memorable nemesis, as does Pepper. The showdown between Pepper and Sammael is breathtaking.

"Owls"/"Roosters": Builds on the foundation of "The Hand Of Saint Sebastian", showing what the Group is all about. Thoroughly fascinating to me. I loved the appearance by the Old Man; he's succint and yet profound. The only thing that was hokey to me was the "cosmic bubble" explanation given about the Owls.

"The Fourth Horseman"/"The Time Is Now": Definitely some emotionally gripping moments in both parts, particularly the Frank/Peter scene in "The Fourth Horseman", and the final act of "The Time Is Now'. Awesome stuff, but there are way too many problems in these scripts, particularly in "The Time Is Now". I know, it's television, but this stretches my willingness to suspend disbelief to far.

"Paper Dove"/"The Beginning and the End": In "Paper Dove", Henry Dion makes for a decently interesting story, but this episode has two of the worst guest characters ever: Dawn, Catherine's sister, and Henry Dion's mother. Both are crabby, whiny, and in the mom's case, a little mad. "The Beginning and The End" is a great season premiere; the way everything Frank thought was safe is turned on its head is very compelling. An interesting part in "Paper Dove", is some dialogue spoken in passing:

Devlin: (chuckles) "Seriously, is it true that some

of your people think it's because of some greater evil

out there?"

Kane: "Yeah, I mean, that sounds almost like a

religious thing."

Frank: "Yeah, some people have that belief."

We start seeing some of these people in Season 2.

"Via Dolorosa" / "Goodbye To All That": I liked the idea that the killer did not want to commit these acts and was possibly being controlled by someone else in "Via Dolorosa", but the tons of explicit sex scenes were completely unnecessary. And the idea that the Group was behind creating these serial killers in "Goodbye To All That" I don't buy at all, just like that Gulf War garbage in "Collateral Damage", killing Group members in "Skull and Bones", and all of the other covert actions attributed to the Group in S3. They are NOT evil, dammit!

"The Innocents" / "Exegesis": I liked some of "The Innocents". I like how the the new characters are introduced. The atmosphere is good. But that's about it. The haphazard method of dealing with the events of "The Time Is Now" by not dealing with them at all is lazy. And the notion that the Group released the Marburg virus is totally unfounded. Garbage. On top of this, a return to subtlety "The Innocents" is not. We have a plane crash, a house explosion, a car chase and subsequent crash, and gunfight. The remote viewer project that the Group is supposedly using because "they want to end the world" is also total garbage.

[Guest se7en]

.......how in the name of holy hell hell can you say that?! the group was exposed as a dangerous,unstable cult,by M&W no less,in S2 and the group was very much under the influence of legion as was also made very clear. ...are you sure,and i sincerely do NOT mean to be patronizing-(HONEST),that to you,the group is not evil and that you just did not like what the writers turned the group into? "If" that's the case then the "original sin" lies with M&W as they are the ones who turned it into an apocolyptic/religious cult throught out S2 and kept turning up that theme more and more as time went on. ...the brilliant writer/producers of S3 may have,in my case thankfully,drasticly changed the tone and direction of the show but as far as the group being a dangerous unstable cult THOSE foundations were clearly laid in S2 by M&W. (??)

se7en

[Guest chrisnu]

The Group may have been seeking to control the conditions surrounding the upcoming millennium, but never was it stated in S2 that they wanted to end the world. They wanted to do what they could to ensure the survival of mankind through the Apocalypse. Their philosophies on when that would come were different, but their intentions were good, and the Group showed signs in "Roosters" that the animosity and instability between the two factions was diminishing. In "The Fourth Horseman" / "The Time Is Now', the Marburg virus does come and go, but the idea that the Group released it is indeed an S3 concoction and has no basis in reality during S2. In S2, The Group was not some governmental conspiracy group. They were not using remote viewers for evil purposes. They did not murder their own members or civilians because they posed a threat. They did not commit war crimes against American soldiers during the Gulf War. They were not performing stem cell research or using human lab rats. And they were not drilling holes in people's heads to create serial killers, whom they unleash on the public. They were not influenced by Legion (which is only hinted at in one shape-shifting scene in "Seven And One", which contained plenty of other major contradictions.) That is all S3 revisionism.

[Guest se7en]

The Group may have been seeking to control the conditions surrounding the upcoming millennium, but never was it stated in S2 that they wanted to end the world. They wanted to do what they could to ensure the survival of mankind through the Apocalypse. Their philosophies on when that would come were different, but their intentions were good, and the Group showed signs in "Roosters" that the animosity and instability between the two factions was diminishing. In "The Fourth Horseman" / "The Time Is Now', the Marburg virus does come and go, but the idea that the Group released it is indeed an S3 concoction and has no basis in reality during S2. The Group was not some governmental conspiracy group. They were not using remote viewers for evil purposes. They did not murder their own members or civilians because they posed a threat. They did not commit war crimes against American soldiers during the Gulf War. They were not performing stem cell research or using human lab rats. And they were not drilling holes in people's heads to create serial killers, whom they unleash on the public. They were not influenced by Legion (which is only hinted at in one shape-shifting scene in "Seven And One", which contained plenty of other major contradictions.) That is all S3 revisionism.

....i never said anything about the group wanting to end the world.-(nor did S3's writers for that matter.). you said the group was not EVIL in your first reply. what does that,and my first response, have to do with the end of the world? if you don't want to answer a question about a point that you brought up then that's fine but kindly leave twisting my words out of it.

...you may see the direction of the group in S3 as garbage but many of us saw/see it as a welcome relief,and really the only sensical option left, from M&W's hobbling a brilliant show by turning it's premise into trite melodrama at the end of S2. Viral chickens,viruses that incubate in and kill in hours-(with nary a mention of the fact,until the more intelligent writers in S3 pointed out,correctly i might add, that such a powerfull virus would flame itself out before it could "wipe out the world" because of it's very lethality.) i far more "buy" genetics experiments by an "unstable religious cult",as M&W portrayed/wrote the group during the latter half of S2,than thier halfbaked stab at sci-fi-fantasy mixed with religious goop.

...and all the group descriptors,not my opinions mixed within,are taken by following what actually happened and what was written in the scripts and not based on how i wish something was or was not.

...it's certainly your right to discount what you don't like about the group. but a lot of the very things you do not like about the group were,in point of fact started well before S3 and "BY" M&W. to deny,by way of the scripts themselves,what M&W turned the group into with thier own very EXPLICIT words and wordings seems very revisionist in and of itself.

1)-the "GOOD AND NOBLE" group withholding the truth about the identity of the poloroid stalker-(which itself is "REVISIONIST HISTORY" of the whole poloroid stalker storyline,by M&W,of what occured in S1.)-which,

2)-led to the kidnapping and near death of katherine,because of the "VIRTUOUS" group,which,

3)-led to frank murding a man in cold blood and the breaking up his family as the "GOOD" GROUP wanted.

4)-THE MILLENNIUM GROUP keeping tabs on EVERYONE who buys a bible in this country.-(why not also on political text books/beliefs,terrorist groups and thier teachings and actions which are just as much a threat to the modern world and it's potential end? why just bibles and religious text books as pointed out in 19:19 by Peter,which was written by M&W?)

5)-peter himself evetualy constanly questioning the group's "true" nature and purpose starting with "...SEABASTION" which,

6)-led to a threat expulsion from the group should he continue with his attempts to study parts of the group's so-called ancient history.-(funny,i seem to recall everyone in SEASON-1,including 2 liitle guys known as Chris Carter and Lance Henriksen, stating that the "MILLENNIUM GROUP" was based on a "real" INVESTIGATIVE-GROUP,made up of EX-FBI,known as "THE ACADEMY". hmmm,sounds like M&W did some "S2 revisionist history" of what was described,and what occured,before in S1 doesn't it?)

7)-Peter helping "non-members" which results in the group attempting/threatening his death and the death of his family.

8.)-the "NON-EVIL" group refusing to give a vaccine to a lethal virus to frank's family,only frank himself,resulting in katherine's death.)

9)-group members killing each other,and others who get in thier way of thier "purpose".

...these are just a VERY few examples,all of which were/are clearly and neatly,or in my mind SLOPPILY, "shoved out there" by M&W in S2.

...so these are the actions of a group out to do good,with good intentions, and to ensure the survival of the world?!? ...if so i'd sure as hell hate to see what the actions of a bad,misguided dangerous and evil group of religious "cultists" would be like who DID NOT want to ensure the survival of the world.

sheesh.

se7en

[Guest A Stranger]

....i never said anything about the group wanting to end the world.-(nor did S3's writers for that matter.). you said the group was not EVIL in your first reply. what does that,and my first response, have to do with the end of the world? if you don't want to answer a question about a point that you brought up then that's fine but kindly leave twisting my words out of it.

...you may see the direction of the group in S3 as garbage but many of us saw/see it as a welcome relief,and really the only sensical option left, from M&W's hobbling a brilliant show by turning it's premise into trite melodrama at the end of S2. Viral chickens,viruses that incubate in and kill in hours-(with nary a mention of the fact,until the more intelligent writers in S3 pointed out,correctly i might add, that such a powerfull virus would flame itself out before it could "wipe out the world" because of it's very lethality.) i far more "buy" genetics experiments by an "unstable religious cult",as M&W portrayed/wrote the group during the latter half of S2,than thier halfbaked stab at sci-fi-fantasy mixed with religious goop.

...and all the group descriptors,not my opinions mixed within,are taken by following what actually happened and what was written in the scripts and not based on how i wish something was or was not.

...it's certainly your right to discount what you don't like about the group. but a lot of the very things you do not like about the group were,in point of fact started well before S3 and "BY" M&W. to deny,by way of the scripts themselves,what M&W turned the group into with thier own very EXPLICIT words and wordings seems very revisionist in and of itself.

1)-the "GOOD AND NOBLE" group withholding the truth about the identity of the poloroid stalker-(which itself is "REVISIONIST HISTORY" of the whole poloroid stalker storyline,by M&W,of what occured in S1.)-which,

2)-led to the kidnapping and near death of katherine,because of the "VIRTUOUS" group,which,

3)-led to frank murding a man in cold blood and the breaking up his family as the "GOOD" GROUP wanted.

4)-THE MILLENNIUM GROUP keeping tabs on EVERYONE who buys a bible in this country.-(why not also on political text books/beliefs,terrorist groups and thier teachings and actions which are just as much a threat to the modern world and it's potential end? why just bibles and religious text books as pointed out in 19:19 by Peter,which was written by M&W?)

5)-peter himself evetualy constanly questioning the group's "true" nature and purpose starting with "...SEABASTION" which,

6)-led to a threat expulsion from the group should he continue with his attempts to study parts of the group's so-called ancient history.-(funny,i seem to recall everyone in SEASON-1,including 2 liitle guys known as Chris Carter and Lance Henriksen, stating that the "MILLENNIUM GROUP" was based on a "real" INVESTIGATIVE-GROUP,made up of EX-FBI,known as "THE ACADEMY". hmmm,sounds like M&W did some "S2 revisionist history" of what was described,and what occured,before in S1 doesn't it?)

7)-Peter helping "non-members" which results in the group attempting/threatening his death and the death of his family.

8.)-the "NON-EVIL" group refusing to give a vaccine to a lethal virus to frank's family,only frank himself,resulting in katherine's death.)

9)-group members killing each other,and others who get in thier way of thier "purpose".

...these are just a VERY few examples,all of which were/are clearly and neatly,or in my mind SLOPPILY, "shoved out there" by M&W in S2.

...so these are the actions of a group out to do good,with good intentions, and to ensure the survival of the world?!? ...if so i'd sure as hell hate to see what the actions of a bad,misguided dangerous and evil group of religious "cultists" would be like who DID NOT want to ensure the survival of the world.

sheesh.

se7en

The old woman in "Exegesis" does state that she knows what the Group is up too and that they want the world to end. Although, this plotline seemed to have been dropped as quickly as it was started because the next time we see the Group in "Skull and Bones" that is not the case and it's never brought up again.

Also, the Group was not directly responsible for the Marburg virus in season two. They were corrupted by power and were indirectly responsible for not telling anyone else and were trying to earn Frank and Peter's aligences in the process. I'm not as against the idea of Frank holding them responsible and leaving them as I am with the way it was done. They simply re-wrote what had happened. The ground zero in "The Fourth Horseman" was not a mother and a daughter as Frank says in "The Innocents" which is the bedrock for the clones plotline, and Frank up until the very end of season two did not believe the Group spread or releaesed the virus. In fact, it almost looks like he came to this conclusion during his mental breakdown since the first time this idea of the Group's resonsablity is brought up is during his therapy video tape.

The impression that I got through season two is that Group is corrupt, power hungry but most important as Frank atests to in "The Time is Now" that they are right, or that he believes them. The prediction of the earthquakes seems to prove this at least in the context of the episode. In seaon three they would most likely have said that the group has some kind of new science fiction tecnology to create earthquakes in order to make Frank believe them. I mean, they went all the way out of their way to re-create a serial killer just to f*** with him?

And as for Group members killing each other, that never happend in season two. In "Roosters/Owls" the fear was that they were killing each other but it was found out that it was a third group, Odessa. The Group killing each other is very previlent in season three, though.

And as for where I presonaly stand, what would I have liked? I like Se7en was not as fond of how far in depth with the Group mythology they were going and I'm really glad they downplayed it in season three but I also wasn't too happy with making them so one-dimensional and militaristic. The Group was founed by J. Edgar Hoover?? A lot of the time the Group's motivations were never explained as if they expected the horrible things they did were explanation enough. They're cloning hands? Oh, well that makes them bad...

Were they in fact corrupted? The only time this is every even hinted is as Chrisnu says, in the same actor as Mabius in "Seven and One" and this to me seems more like an alusion to "Gehenna" if anything seeing as how Chris Carter didn't seem to be involved with the MM myhology at all. I've read the original draft of "Matryoska" at the Abyss and there is a scene were Peter hints at the Group's obsession with experimenting with evil and then being consumed by it, but this was never aired and who knows how serious to take it.

[Guest chrisnu]

I don't want to argue, and it wasn't my intent to upset anyone. My opinion is totally subjective; feel free to disagree with it. My intent was also not to twist your words, se7en: I was only referring to what 512 stated in "Exegesis" as A Stranger pointed out. I do agree that some of the decisions made by Group members were questionable; however, it was never stated that the Group wanted Frank and Catherine to be separated. The initial meeting in "Luminary" actually points to the contrary.

funny,i seem to recall everyone in SEASON-1,including 2 liitle guys known as Chris Carter and Lance Henriksen, stating that the "MILLENNIUM GROUP" was based on a "real" INVESTIGATIVE-GROUP,made up of EX-FBI,known as "THE ACADEMY

This was all off-screen. During S1, we are never told the origins of the Group. They only serve as a means of aid for Frank in his investigations. We never see how the Group really works. This opened the door for what we saw in S2.

The Group may have become corrupted, as illustrated by Johnston in "Owls", working the two factions against one another. But as the Old Man stated, Millennium's purpose was to maintain the balance between good and evil. Their intent to maintain this balance was illustrated by the elimination of ODESSA in "Roosters".

I guess what it comes down to is personal preference, and I preferred the conflicted, but still good at its core Group of S2. The generically evil approach of S3 was (in my humble opinion) much less interesting, and the contradictions to previously established canon were frustrating.