1911

[4th Horseman]

In "A Room with no View", at the end, when Peter and Frank are releasing the kids, in the office, when Frank pulls that picture down off the wall, turns it over, the newspaper is dated in the year 1911..he then turns the picture back around and its a photo of a young woman who looks mysteriously like the counselor at school. Could one then deduce that some kind of "fountain of youth" pact was made between Lucy Butler and the counselor? The difference between current date and picture date would place the article at over 70 years old...

anyone pick up on this? what are your thoughts? Funny, my birthday is Sept 19, although not 1911..Hendrix also died on 9/18 as well...hmmmm

Till the Last Change...Be Done...

The Fourth Horseman....

[ethsnafu]

Greetings my friend,

*

I had to go and watch the episode again after you sparked my interest: of course it was no hardship as it is a sensationally dark episode: 'Love is Blue' simply doesn't sound the same ever again. The newspaper photograph accompanying the story of Annie Martin's disappearance looks like Lucy Butler to me.

I did the pause thing, squinted and did various angles but it still looks like Lucy. A second photograph does appear to depict the disappearance of Teresa Roe but even then I'm not certain nor can I be sure of the implications of either of these. Was the current form of 'Lucy' once known as Annie Martin? Does Lucy assume the identities of those she kills? It is certainly implied that Teresa has made some form of Faustian pact with Lucy and clearly leads the 'the most likely to succeed' to Lucy's lair but what she received I am unsure. Maybe it is the counsellor in the photograph then, as you state, she must have received the gift of retarded ageing.

*

"If you leave again, he will kill you."

*

Still haven't figured the gist behind the Long Haired Man, who is either in the service of Lucy or is Lucy: I have settled upon the latter. The hair found at the Bryce's is identified as male though I am sure it was Lucy who was there (there are even more snippets of this male entity in Antipas). Could be that the beast behind Butler is androgynous? Baphomet was an androgynous entity. Satan, like Baphomet, is often pictured as a hermaphroditic deity, having a male phallus and the breasts of a woman.The Devil of the Tarot pack is usually androgynous as are many of the devils represented in cathedral carvings. Since I can't decide if Lucy is the devil, a devil or non of the former this apparent gender bending is certainly a hint to something supernatural. Interestingly Mel Gibson chose to represent Satan as a shape-changing, androgyne in The Passion of Christ....

*

But then again I had another musing: is Lucy in fact a sucubus? Able to assume to perfect form to entice copulation? Antipas seems to suggest this. A succubus goes about its business by having sexual relations with the victim, exhausting them, then feeding on the energy released during sex. They will often visit the same victim more than once but cannot enter homes uninvited. The victim of a Succubus will experience the visits as dreams. An almost perfect description of some of the characteristics of the Antipas episode.

*

I think you may have mentioned before that Lucy is one of the most enigmatic of MM creations that was destined for more explanation. More the pity it wasn't to be...

Till then,

ethsnafu

Can I also give a huge salutation to chrisnu? I use his screencaps to illustrate so many points that I feel guilty I have never thanked him (I will feel terrible now if he is in fact a she) your screen capture site is an absolulte godsend!

[4th Horseman]

Greetings my friend,

*

I had to go and watch the episode again after you sparked my interest: of course it was no hardship as it is a sensationally dark episode: 'Love is Blue' simply doesn't sound the same ever again. The newspaper photograph accompanying the story of Annie Martin's disappearance looks like Lucy Butler to me.

I did the pause thing, squinted and did various angles but it still looks like Lucy. A second photograph does appear to depict the disappearance of Teresa Roe but even then I'm not certain nor can I be sure of the implications of either of these. Was the current form of 'Lucy' once  known as Annie Martin? Does Lucy assume the identities of those she kills? It is certainly implied that Teresa has made some form of Faustian pact with Lucy and clearly leads the 'the most likely to succeed' to Lucy's lair but what she received I am unsure. Maybe it is the counsellor in the photograph then, as you state, she must have received the gift of retarded ageing.

*

"If you leave again, he will kill you."

*

Still haven't figured the gist behind the Long Haired Man, who is either in the service of Lucy or is Lucy: I have settled upon the latter. The hair found at the Bryce's is identified as male though I am sure it was Lucy who was there (there are even more snippets of this male entity in Antipas). Could be that the beast behind Butler is androgynous? Baphomet was an androgynous entity. Satan, like Baphomet, is often pictured as a hermaphroditic deity, having a male phallus and the breasts of a woman.The Devil of the Tarot pack is usually androgynous as are many of the devils represented in cathedral carvings. Since I can't decide if Lucy is the devil, a devil or non of the former this apparent gender bending is certainly a hint to something supernatural. Interestingly Mel Gibson chose to represent Satan as a shape-changing, androgyne in The Passion of Christ....

*

But then again I had another musing: is Lucy in fact a sucubus? Able to assume to perfect form to entice copulation? Antipas seems to suggest this. A succubus goes about its business by having sexual relations with the victim, exhausting them, then feeding on the energy released during sex. They will often visit the same victim more than once but cannot enter homes uninvited. The victim of a Succubus will experience the visits as dreams. An almost perfect description of some of the characteristics of the Antipas episode.

*

I think you may have mentioned before that Lucy is one of the most enigmatic of MM creations that was destined for more explanation. More the pity it wasn't to be...

Till then,

ethsnafu

Can I also give a huge salutation to chrisnu? I use his screencaps to illustrate so many points that I feel guilty I have never thanked him (I will feel terrible now if he is in fact a she) your screen capture site is an absolulte godsend!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ethsnafu my friend,another stunning and informative post. I also had the sucubus idea floating around in my head, but there was never any concrete evidence of sexual relations with any of her victims. Although in "A Room with No View" she did take on the persona of a seductress. As for Antipas, i still have yet to possess the 3rd season, so therefore i cannot render any opinions..

In my somewhat aging mind, logic would dictate that since the photo was found at Lucy's place, was found amidst photos of all the other missing teenagers, why would the picture be of Lucy Butler and not Theresa Roe. The news article on the back of the photo certainly would not just arbitrarily pertain to "any" disappearance, but to the person depicted in the photo, about which comes the following information...the girls name is Annie Martin, described as a good student with "average" grades, but there was something else i noticed as well...look at all of the old-time photos hanging on the wall, some of them look like they pre-date the one Frank pulls off the wall, obviously before there was anywhere electronically to track missing persons. Is Lucy one of the Ancient Ones? Not only this, but the music changes dramatically when they are looking at the picture, and the tone of the music is both haunting and sinister sounding, so there IS something about that pic...and one last thing...does the picture seem to depict a high school senior, or someone who is a bit older. It looks to me like a photo of a late 20 to early 30 year old woman, not of a high school senior...the only historical significance i could find on Annie Martin is that of a 33 year old stewardess on the Titanic. She survived the tragedy and was rescued in lifeboat 11..????? isnt this fun thinking up theories about stuff?? man, if i dedicated myself half as much to my regular work, i'd be rich (selling hair care products that no one wants over the phone, and driving German cars)...LOL

Now, in a 2nd deduction from a greying mind, remember Roe's speech about "normality" her "score below 750 points on the SAT and certain doors close"...she herself appeared to very "normal", not showing much emotion during her interview with Giebelhouse and Frank, nor really at any time during the show...look at her eyes on the closeups...dead, dead, dead.....Perhaps if we add 1 and 1 together..

obviously, by evidence of the photo and the newspaper article, she had, at one time been abducted by Lucy Butler..

then, if you remember what Ben had said at one time in the episode while talking to Landon Bryce in their "cell"

"I've heard she's let people go before, so i think yes, I think once you've proven that you will live the rest of your life in the ways she has taught you, the beauty, and the need, of being ordinary" perhaps Roe had "conformed" to this way of life and thus had been one of those people let go..

Giebelhouse, during her synopsys of Roe...

"There's nothing unusual on Theresa Roe's background. she was an average student, community college, B.A. in education, taught at a bunch of high schools, became a counselor, never married, no record, pretty ordinary person"

It would appear, by all intents and purposes, that Roe was a successful graduate of Lucy's teachings and was thus recruited to be a channel which provided Lucy with a constant flow of "normal" students...there are abductions in the interview with Roe that go as far back as 1970, so its obvious that over time, Roe was providing Butler with fresh "meat", and the fact that Roe should have been at LEAST in her 80's, if you take the fact that she was abducted in 1911 at an approximate age of 15-18, like the others, seems to bring up the possibility that a "fountain of youth" pact was made..for if she were to be allowed to age normally, then she could not have retained her counselorship at various high schools, being forced to retire due to health, age, etc, by a system that believes the elderly cannot be productive members of our society, therefore cutting off the supply of kids for Lucy Butler...

thats my take...

1. a woman who barely ages in 80 years

2. her employment at a myriad of high schools

3. the abductions taking place over a period of many years...

She graduated with honors from the Lucy Butler School of Normality...

also, did anyone notice the Good-Bye Ms. Roe banner on her wall with a total of 19 kids faces was from......

BUTLER HIGH?...very interesting...are the faces of the kids the ones who disappeared over her tenure at the high school?.....

just curious....

I have included a comparison of Roe vs Butler in relation to the photo found in Lucy's office...judge for yourself...

Till the Last Change....Be Done..

The Fourth Horseman

[ethsnafu]

Salutations,

A fabulously coherent description of the episode, and I agree, when it is written explained so well, that Roe clearly did graduate from Butler High and was a 'fisher of souls' for Lucy's Satanic Finishing School. But, I am sure that episode does hint that Lucy is the woman named Annie Martin in the 1911 disappearance report. As regards being addled there is no-one more addled than I, so I accept that I am more thank likely incorrect but I recently read a virtual fourth season episode and the author does seem to conclude, as I do, that the image of Annie Martin is also that of Lucy Butler.

Cue Snippet:

Virtual Season Episode #414. "Hollow Scars"

Man #1 begins to pull off the mask.

MAN #1 (CONT'D)

...Miss Martin.

The woman's face belongs to none other than ANNIE MARTIN a.k.a. LUCY BUTLER!

CLOSE ON - ANNIE MARTIN'S FACE.

*

While I agree it is an opinion and fanfic does is not exactly canonical the author of The Millennium Timeline gives the following dates for pivotal moments of this episode:

1896 Annie Martin is born. (A Room With No View)

1911 Annie Martin is kidnapped by someone who wants to make her "ordinary". She instead strikes a deal to preserve her talents. She takes the name Lucy Butler. (A Room With No View)

Now I am confused. Annie Martin/Lucy Butler or something else entirely?

*

All that aside,

Isn't it a unique concept to potray the designs of a demon to make people mediocre? The left hand path has long since been associated with liberation, self expression and the removal of societal norms and limitations. Odd then that Millennium would potray the exact opposite in this episode. She made them mediocre, released them and then.......they became Conservative Party Members?

*

Interestingly Mother Teresa wrote a letter to the U.S. Supreme Court with regards to the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision allowing abortion throughout the United States. She wrote: "It was this Court's own decision in Roe v. Wade (1973) to exclude the unborn child from the human family. You ruled that a mother, in consultation with her doctor, has broad discretion, guaranteed against infringement by the United States Constitution, to choose to destroy her unborn child." I wondered if Teresa Roe was named after this famous case and Mother Teresa's equally famous response to it. It certainly links in with the constant theme of child crimes that follows the devilish Lucy Butler. I do remember reading a quote from Roe that was very similar in nature to the MM Roe's speech about surrendering to the system. I shall look hard until I find it...

Till then,

ethsnafu

[4th Horseman]

Salutations,

A fabulously coherent description of the episode, and I agree, when it is written explained so well, that Roe clearly did graduate from Butler High and was a 'fisher of souls' for Lucy's Satanic Finishing School. But, I am sure that episode does hint that Lucy is the woman named Annie Martin in the 1911 disappearance report. As regards being addled there is no-one more addled than I, so I accept that I am more thank likely incorrect but I recently read a virtual fourth season episode and the author does seem to conclude, as I do, that the image of Annie Martin is also that of Lucy Butler.

Cue Snippet:

Virtual Season Episode #414. "Hollow Scars"

Man #1 begins to pull off the mask.

                                MAN #1 (CONT'D)

                ...Miss Martin.

The woman's face belongs to none other than ANNIE MARTIN a.k.a. LUCY BUTLER!

CLOSE ON - ANNIE MARTIN'S FACE.

*

While I agree it is an opinion and fanfic does is not exactly canonical the author of The Millennium Timeline gives the following dates for pivotal moments of this episode:

1896 Annie Martin is born. (A Room With No View)

1911 Annie Martin is kidnapped by someone who wants to make her "ordinary". She instead strikes a deal to preserve her talents. She takes the name Lucy Butler. (A Room With No View)

Now I am confused. Annie Martin/Lucy Butler or something else entirely?

*

All that aside,

Isn't it a unique concept to potray the designs of a demon to make people mediocre? The left hand path has long since been associated with liberation, self expression and the removal of societal norms and limitations. Odd then that Millennium would potray the exact opposite in this episode. She made them mediocre, released them and then.......they became Conservative Party Members?

*

Interestingly Mother Teresa wrote a letter to the U.S. Supreme Court with regards to the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision allowing abortion throughout the United States. She wrote: "It was this Court's own decision in Roe v. Wade (1973) to exclude the unborn child from the human family. You ruled that a mother, in consultation with her doctor, has broad discretion, guaranteed against infringement by the United States Constitution, to choose to destroy her unborn child." I wondered if Teresa Roe was named after this famous case and Mother Teresa's equally famous response to it. It certainly links in with the constant theme of child crimes that follows the devilish Lucy Butler. I do remember reading a quote from Roe that was very similar in nature to the MM Roe's speech about surrendering to the system. I shall look hard until I find it...

Till then,

ethsnafu

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My dear friend Ethsnafu..we seem to banter back and forth on this issue concerning the factual basis of the photo...in my previous post, which i must have edited 10 times before i was happy with it, it was, and still is my claim that the photo depicts Roe at an earlier age, in my opinion, this photo in no way represents that of a high-school aged teenager. The lines and features are far too mature for someone in the teens. This picture again, seems to portray an older woman, possibly in their late 20's to early 30's..

Personally, unless someone delving into a "virtual" fourth season is intimately familiar and had some type of direct agenda with the episode, i would be highly reticent to take their word as "God"....different people interpret differently, and as i said, unless Wright or anyone else familiar with the intent of the show was involved...caveat emptor....

what intrigues me are the circa 1800 photos also on the wall. Souls long ago lost, becoming vapors in the entity we know as life...very melancholy and haunting scene....

i think we have just about exhausted possibilites with "A Room with No View"....but just like the entire premise of MillenniuM, there was so much promise to build on, and yet it dissolved before our very eyes, leaving gaping holes that can only be filled by conjecture, becoming extinct due to the network brass wanting "more normal" programming...right under our very noses, Lucy Butler is still at work...

[ethsnafu]

Ah my friend,

I quite agree on all points and it is surely the beauty of Millennium that we all see something so very different when we indulge in it. I was also intrigued during the scene when 'Ben Gump' scrawls a Millennium tag line on the wall. What comes next?

I plumped for 'here' but it seems so obvious. And yup I worked out how to add an image the proper way. Sometimes the easiest things are the hardest for me?!?

*

becoming extinct due to the network brass wanting "more normal" programming...right under our very noses,

*

My friend! You should come to the UK. We are quite incapable of producing anything that is not a) Reality TV b) Celebrity Reality TV. Now 'Celebrity Room with No View' is something I would pay to see.......

Till then,

ethsnafu

Edited May 29, 2005 by ethsnafu

[Guest blondton13]

Sorry to bump in on you guys~just wanted to give you my take. From what I deduced, the picture is of Lucy...and she was once a girl with big dreams and aspirations-like the boys that were kidnapped. The same thing happened to her...and from that point on she has been in the employ of the "Evil", if you will, and she has become immortal in a sense. Roe was just one of her successful transformations. Roe was aging as a normal person would, but Lucy doesn't because she is no longer of this mortal world. I've seen this ep a few times myself, and I still am convinced that the pic was of Lucy.

Cheers!

[4th Horseman]

Sorry to bump in on you guys~just wanted to give you my take. From what I deduced, the picture is of Lucy...and she was once a girl with big dreams and aspirations-like the boys that were kidnapped. The same thing happened to her...and from that point on she has been in the employ of the "Evil", if you will, and she has become immortal in a sense. Roe was just one of her successful transformations. Roe was aging as a normal person would, but Lucy doesn't because she is no longer of this mortal world. I've seen this ep a few times myself, and I still am convinced that the pic was of Lucy.

Cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ok, i see how this is going..gang up on The Fourth Horseman is it? Well, thats the same pig-ignorance i've come to expect from you non-creative garbage. You sit there on your lothsome, spotty behinds, squeezing blackheads, not caring a tinker's cuss for the struggling artist, you excrement!!, you whining hypocritical toadies, with you color tv sets and you Tony Jacklin golfclubs, and your bleeding masonic secret handshakes. You wouldn't let me join would ya, you blackballin b*******s!! well, i wouldn't become a Free Mason now if you got down on your lousy stinking knees, and begged me!!!!!...a little Monty Python humor for us all

oh sorry, got a bit carried away there....i want so much to be right, but i am beginning to think that you two are right after all....all that posting for nothing. OH GOD!! The pain, the misery, scientists call this disease bromodrosis, but those of us who wear an occasional python boot know this exquisite little inconvience by the name of "STINK-FOOT"...

anyway, a little Frank Zappa at the end never hurt anyone....

Till the Last Change...Be Done...

The Fourth Horseman...

[Guest blondton13]

ok, i see how this is going..gang up on The Fourth Horseman is it? Well, thats the same pig-ignorance i've come to expect from you non-creative garbage. You sit there on your lothsome, spotty behinds, squeezing blackheads, not caring a tinker's cuss for the struggling artist, you excrement!!, you whining hypocritical toadies, with you color tv sets and you Tony Jacklin golfclubs, and your bleeding masonic secret handshakes. You wouldn't let me join would ya, you blackballin b*******s!! well, i wouldn't become a Free Mason now if you got down on your lousy stinking knees, and begged me!!!!!...a little Monty Python humor for us all

oh sorry, got a bit carried away there....i want so much to be right, but i am beginning to think that you two are right after all....all that posting for nothing. OH GOD!! The pain, the misery, scientists call this disease bromodrosis, but those of us who wear an occasional python boot know this exquisite little inconvience by the name of "STINK-FOOT"...

anyway, a little Frank Zappa at the end never hurt anyone....

Till the Last Change...Be Done...

The Fourth Horseman...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haha! That's a cheer for accepting defeat masterfully! Hehe You know, nothing it set in stone...if you believe your take is right, then right you are. That's what makes things fun to ponder! (You're still wrong, though)

[vain68]

The unsettling sequence in which Lucy torments Frank in a sexually explicit dream plays off the medieval legend of the succubus, a female demon said to descend upon and have sexual intercourse with a man while he sleeps.

This may shed some light on issues raised earlier.