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4th Horseman

Borrowed Time

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Ok here we go again...its amazing how many times one can watch an episode and miss things...In the very beginning of Borrowed Time, when Jordan is in the hospital, we see a priest looking over her. He looks at his watch, and strangely enough the hour and minute hand overlap at 10 o'clock, and the second hand is at 13...I began to think this was a veiled reference to 10:13 Studios...now as you watch the priest turn to the table to pick up the Bible and his "scarf" (for lack of a better term), there is an old style pocket watch sitting on the table as well, open, showing a time of 10:13...so i guess we got a double dose right off the bat...

Also, the train conductor is seen reading a book called "The Gift"...would that possibly be a reference to the "gift" of extra time that Sammuel talks about later in the episode concerning Jordan? Anyone ever read the book? What do you guys/girls think?

4th Horseman

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Nicely spotted, Fourth, again! :rock2:

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Also, the train conductor is seen reading a book called "The Gift"...would that possibly be a reference to the "gift" of extra time that Sammuel talks about later in the episode concerning Jordan? Anyone ever read the book? What do you guys/girls think?

4th Horseman

Boy, 4th, you've got to be one of the most studied pupils of MM I've ever seen. :notworthy:

Do you know if the book The Gift is a real one or just a prop? With such a simple title, I would have to think that someone has written at least one book over the years with that title. (Sorry to throw a question back but I just don't have time to check internet resources for that title right now.) :helpme:

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Boy, 4th, you've got to be one of the most studied pupils of MM I've ever seen. :notworthy:

Do you know if the book The Gift is a real one or just a prop? With such a simple title, I would have to think that someone has written at least one book over the years with that title. (Sorry to throw a question back but I just don't have time to check internet resources for that title right now.) :helpme:

Southern Celt - in watching the episode closely, there is a scene outside the hospital when Frank questions Sammuel

FRANK

(deadly)

Why are you stalking my daughter?

SAMIEL

(suddenly serious)

"She received a gift."

FRANK

A gift?

SAMIEL

Of additional time on earth -- just

like the others. Now that time is

finished. And there are those who

need now what she needed then, to

continue living.

so it does appear to have a reference to what was given Jordan....the gift of extra time....

Here is another poser regarding this episode...first off, how does an angel, Sammuel in this case actually drown? Could it be that Frank's plea to God in the ER changed the origional intent of Sammuel's visit? We see that he has supernatural powers as he waves his hand and Jordan collapses, so why was he not able to save himself from drowning? That would mean that Sammuel would have to transform from his angelic nature to a human nature. Maybe? Possibly? or am i out in left field somewhere...could Frank's plea at Jordan's bedside have set in motion a change of direction?

4th Horseman

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I live now on borrowed time, waiting in the anteroom for the summons that will inevitably come. And then - I go on to the next thing, whatever it is. One doesn't luckily have to bother about that.

I confess to having been pondering this since Fourth Horseman brought it to my attention a few days ago and it seemed logical, if not a little daunting, to go to the 'source' for some much needed clarification as to who or what Samael is with regards to Religious and Occult lore. Samael is an important figure in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is accuser, seducer, and destroyer. Legends referring to Satan refer equally to him, such that Samael is often taken to be the true or angelic name of the Devil as opposed to the epithet Lucifer or the 'job title' Satan (Adversary). Samael is etymologized as "the venom of God," since he is sometimes identified with the Angel of death but the name could also be derived from that of the Syrian god Shemal. In Jewish lore he is said to be chief ruler of the 7th Heaven, one of the 7 regents of the world served by 2 million angels; on the other hand, St. John speaks of him in Revelation as the "great serpent with 12 wings that draws after him, in his fall, the solar system." ''Yalkut I, 110'' of the Talmud speaks of Samael as Esau's guardian angel. In ''Sotah 10b'', Samael is Edom's guardian angel, and in the ''Sayings of Rabbi Eliezer'', he is charged with being the one who tempted Eve, then seduced and impregnated her with Cain. In The Holy Kabbalah, Samael is described as the "severity of God" and is listed as 5th of the archangels of the world of Briah. Samael took Lilith as his bride after she left Adam. According to Zoharistic cabala, also among Samael's mates were Eisheth Zenunium, Naamah and Agrat bat Mahlat - all angels of prostitution. To confude matters much further (as it would seem he is rather a master of all trades) Samael is also identified with the Choronzon entity of the Elizabethan ceremonial magician John Dee, and of Aleister Crowley.

In Apocalyptic writing lies the 'conception of fallen angels' — angels who, for wilful, rebellious conduct against God, or through weakness under temptation thereby forfeiting their angelic dignity, were degraded and condemned to a life of mischief or shame on earth or in a place of punishment. But it is in apocalyptic writings that this notion assumes crystallised definiteness. If one considers the story of the Nephilim, (the offspring of angelic union with the daughters of men) these mighty men of superhuman build and superhuman powers became the sons of incarnate angels and these giants perished in the Flood forcing their disembodied souls to wander through the world as the race of demons. If Samael is, and he is, considered a fallen angel it is possible that he has much the same status as that of the Nephilim - neither angels nor men but something quite unique and very capable of 'giving up the ghost' so to speak. It is true to say that Samael is generally associated with Azrael, the angel of death; but most approporiately he is designated as an angel of severity, the Archangel of Geburah (The Fifth Sephiroth on the Tree of Life) in the world of Briah but in the most esotoric tranditions and in those that date back to antiquity Samael is not a demon, nor a fallen angel at all. It would seem that there is a very distinct possibilty that he is something more similar to the mortal Nephilim than the immortal angelic host.

If Samael is in fact an angel then things get a little murky. Luke 20:36 is steadfast in it's opinion on the mortaility of angels "...nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels..." but Psalms 82:1 goes on to confuse matters greatly by indicating that supernatural entities are indeed capable of death "...You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High. But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes..." but just for the record Hebrews 2:9 appears to have the final word by giving a much needed show of support for Luke as it says that Jesus was "...made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death."

I know this hasn't afforded much in way of a conclusion though I do have a slight theory of my own. Is it possible that Samael (angelic, mortal or otherwise) is reclaiming the gift of life from Jordan as it is he that needs it? He does indeed that it is much more than simply reclaiming life but rather a case of taking what is needed for another "..now that time is finished. And there are those who need now what she needed then, to continue living..." I suppose it is possible that Samael could indeed be akin to the Nephilim in nature, reclaiming Jordan's borrowed time in order to extend his own mortality and, in failing to do so, losing his own life without her much needed 'borrowed time'.

Sorry I couldn;t give a more rounded opinion my friend.

Till then,

eth.

Edited by ethsnafu

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Southern Celt - in watching the episode closely, there is a scene outside the hospital when Frank questions Sammuel

FRANK

(deadly)

Why are you stalking my daughter?

SAMIEL

(suddenly serious)

"She received a gift."

FRANK

A gift?

SAMIEL

Of additional time on earth -- just

like the others. Now that time is

finished. And there are those who

need now what she needed then, to

continue living.

so it does appear to have a reference to what was given Jordan....the gift of extra time....

Here is another poser regarding this episode...first off, how does an angel, Sammuel in this case actually drown? Could it be that Frank's plea to God in the ER changed the origional intent of Sammuel's visit? We see that he has supernatural powers as he waves his hand and Jordan collapses, so why was he not able to save himself from drowning? That would mean that Sammuel would have to transform from his angelic nature to a human nature. Maybe? Possibly? or am i out in left field somewhere...could Frank's plea at Jordan's bedside have set in motion a change of direction?

4th Horseman

I was thinking maybe Frank's plea for Jordan's life was so overwhelming that the angel gave himself in Jordan's place???? just a thought.

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I was thinking maybe Frank's plea for Jordan's life was so overwhelming that the angel gave himself in Jordan's place???? just a thought.
Its quite possible Gunslinger that you may be on to something now that i think about it. If one remembers the discussion outside the hospital when Frank is basically pleading for Jordan's life. Here is the exchange between Samiel and Frank.

SAMIEL

Your wife died so that your daughter

could live.

FRANK

She chose that.

SAMIEL

Did she?

FRANK

Yes.

SAMIEL

(softly)

Where was the choice?

FRANK

You're talking about the only great

thing that ever happened in my life,

do you understand that?

Samiel turns toward Jordan's room; Frank follows his gaze.

Could it possibly be that at that precise moment where Frank bears his

soul to Samuel, and as he looks up at the hospital window, Samuel began to

sense Frank's desperation? .Perhaps at that instance Samuel decided to allow the taking of his own life to allow Jordan to live..

Only a theory...

and ethsnafu...you are right on about the many faces of this very peculiar angel.

Although i possess only somewhat of a superficial understanding of who Samuel

truely is or is meant to be represented in this case, i defer to you with the

utmost respect. If we take what the meaning of his presence is in relationship to

what the show is trying to say, then i feel comfortable with the fact that Samuel

sacrificed himself so that the only meaningful thing in Frank's life could live.

Just a theory...

4th Horseman..

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The Sammael character in "Powers, Principalities, Thrones and Dominions," tells Frank that divine action is not taken to reward or punish individuals but in service of the Law. He leaves Frank with the impression of a grim, harsh, but utterly real divine Order. I think in "Borrowed Time," Sammiel, whatever his relation to the character from "Powers...," shows Frank this code can be broken as he sacrifices himself for Jordan. It's possible he is a fallen angel if he strays from the plan he was set out ot do, which is taking the four lives, Jordan's included.

But I think it's quite possible God Himself intevenes as Frank's desperate prayer seems to coincide with Sammiel's death. MLM always walked a really thin line in this regard. Frank rarely gives his opinion in the belief of God but in season three in particular, his few comments on the subject seem to suggest a growing faith. Another thread was started about this issue not too long ago and I think this episode is key to understanding Frank and God.

I think as ethsanfu (strange name by the way, what does it mean?) pointed out Sammiel represents "God's severity" as he enacts what must be done and he takes a smug approach most likely to distance himself from men. He finds Frank's outrage almost funny at first but then seem to be genuinly moved when Frank tells him how important Jordan is to him.

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by the way, its great to see you back ethsnafu, as usual your posts are intriguing and most informative. Hope all is well with you and yours in this holiday season....Gunslinger

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i defintely believe that Franks faith grew stronger in Season 3 compared to Season 1. I really do think also that Sammeal did scarifice himself in order to let Jordan live, this was Franks turning point episode. By th way this was a great episode also

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