Could someone explain to me the connection between...

[Guest Laurent.]

If essense of TPM task goes back to Magdalene, then its logical to assume we're looking at something bigger than the Group. Unless the evil is infiltrated deep into the Group itself - but I see little evidence to harbour than notion.

I see your point but I'm still not sure we can determine the nature of the test or the tester with the information we're given.

Anyway, wasn't the Group's early incarnation formed a little later than Christ?

I was basing my intervention on this quote from Peter (The Hand of Saint-Sebastian):

They found bodies at 2,000 years old-- bodies that go back

to the beginning of Christianity-- back to the beginning of the Millennium Group.

[hippyroo]

I have to go along with "ethsnafu" that the PM had been a canidate for the group or tool used by them. I recall that episode with the horrible little monster girl that ended up living with one of the goup's families. Could the PM be such a person? Someone with some power that the group wants to control?

[ethsnafu]

Fascinating stuff isn't?

I recall that episode with the horrible little monster girl that ended up living with one of the goup's families. Could the PM be such a person? Someone with some power that the group wants to control?

Yeah I agree and it's interesting to note that a former member of our board posited exactly the same assertion as you - namely that the PM in this incarnation had been mentored by the Group akin to Danielle Barbakow. Barbakow is a fascination creation, the pre-hurricane she is described as being on the cusp of becoming of emerging from the chrysalis in a new and nefarious incarnation. I love the way the movie 'The Fly' is used in the narrative to suggest that Dani is to be exposed to some unnatural element that will penetrate her matrix and I always believed the subtext of this story was that she would eventually house a manifest ion of Legion. Others on this board she your view that the Polaroid Man may have experienced life in much the same way she did before ultimately breaking away from Group control to begin a reign of terrorization.

Anyway, wasn't the Group's early incarnation formed a little later than Christ?

To be fair there is no definitive given though events in Sebastian, Owls and Roosters allow us to tentatively date the Groups origins to the birth pangs of Christianity. The Old Man gives the clearest indication by stating that the Group in its numerous incarnations can consider itself to have a linear heritage dating back two thousand years. Even so my inference is not that the Group gave rise to the entity that seemingly travails from body to body but has simply charted its existence. My belief is 'probably' that the Polaroid Man is a manifestation of Legion, this conglomerate of nefarious entities would go some way to explain how numerous souls could display the same characteristics at the same point in time - originating as they do from a 'Legion' of demons rather than one demonic entity.

I note that you state that there is scant evidence to support the notion that 'evil' had penetrated deep into the Millennium Group nexus but interestingly the group member Mabius was later revealed to not only be a manifestation of Legion himself but to use the Polaroid-taunts in the same way others did before and after him.

My assertion, thus, is not that Legion/Polaroid Man was a device solely concerned with Frank Black but a timeless entity that happened upon Frank in the modern age nor has it ever been in the employ of the Group though at times it has infiltrated it in order to further its ends. It would seem that the Group acquires the necessary bio-neural savvy and then begins to create in-its-own-image Legion entities it believes it can control.

On a final note, the most interesting caveat, to my mind, between Frank and the Polaroid Man is the nature of their 'work'. Frank terrorizes evildoers by capturing psychic images of their lives and the Polaroid/Legion entity does the same to Frank. It's a startling analogy when you think of it. Tit for tat.

Best wishes to all,

Eth

[Guest Jim McLean]

I note that you state that there is scant evidence to support the notion that 'evil' had penetrated deep into the Millennium Group nexus but interestingly the group member Mabius was later revealed to not only be a manifestation of Legion himself but to use the Polaroid-taunts in the same way others did before and after him.

I had previously ignored that, simply because I wasn't certain if there was a definitive rationale there, unless Legion has infiltrated the Group between season two and three (which is arguable given Mabius' sudden appearance). I always took it as meaning that Legion was needlessly taunting the therapist Frank's greatest fear and the fear that the therapist had been discussing with Boxer was the MG, not Evil per se - given there has been little seen of Mabius prior to this moment that implies any third party influence).

That said, to take it in that context you have to assume the scene is dramatised for the viewer more than the therapist (given the therapist is unlikely to have known who Mabius was. We could assume Mabius is a sleeper agent of Evil or a passive manipulator of Evil for the Group. In some respects, this could make sense as to why the Millennium Group appears to have fallen apart prior to "Millennium"; Evil infiltrated and destroyed it internally.

If I concede to this point that Mabius is Legion (and given his dialogue to the therapist is fairly epical and supernatural, it is a very valid standpoint), then indeed, the Millennium Group and Legion could be intertwined, though I don't recall anything in season two which would evidence that. To me, it seemed to be a definitive question for Frank - risk the Millennium Group or risk Legion, so I would say - hypothetically of course - if Legion is somehow part of the group, that it maybe an occurrence that happened more recently that 2000 years ago.

On the 2000 year old point. I would have thought it unlikely that even with origins around the time of Christ, the Group was in either a position of power or carried the contemporary ideology we see in the MG of today. I would think their involvement at the dawn of Christianity would be post Christ, when the roots began to entrench and have little to do with the likes of Magdalene.

My assertion, thus, is not that Legion/Polaroid Man was a device solely concerned with Frank Black but a timeless entity that happened upon Frank in the modern age nor has it ever been in the employ of the Group though at times it has infiltrated it in order to further its ends. It would seem that the Group acquires the necessary bio-neural savvy and then begins to create in-its-own-image Legion entities it believes it can control.

After this chat I would agree with that basic premise; that Legion IS the PM in season two and as an extension the hypothesis (if I'm right) that through the original PM the Group recognized the Legion element and attempted to duplicate and control it in a second and third template. Whether that was the intent or not, I think that's a train of throught which works with the evidence and offers a consistent MO for the MG and events within the show.

[ethsnafu]

...I would think their involvement at the dawn of Christianity would be post Christ, when the roots began to entrench and have little to do with the likes of Magdalene...

How refreshing is discussion such as this?

Isn't it interesting how we all seem to agree? Despite taking different paths we seem to arrive at the same destination. Some of us place gravitas on the arcane elements of narrative whilst others take a more forensic approach to their deconstruction yet there is harmony in the end result.

I just wanted to address the issue of the Magdalene for I fear my explanation was so dangerously unsound that my point is drowning in my lack of articulation.

The truth regarding Clare Mckenna is that despite the clear trappings of the story of the woman with the alabaster jar the relevance to the Polaroid man is in the subtext rather than the overt narrative. Anamnesis deals with Gnosticism and whilst being overtly Christian in its thematic its propositions were decidedly heretical.

When Clare McKenna begins channeling 'Thunder Perfect Mind' Lara is alerted to the fact that discombobulate Merovingian 'tat' The Family subscribe to obscures a greater truth in this instance. The episodes coda with the recitation of a salutation to the perpetual incarnation of the divine-feminine informs us as to the reason for Lara's insurrection, denouncement of orthodox Christianity and repudiation of the notion of a Christ begotten bloodline.

If Season Two and subsequently Season Three sought, by different means, to present the notion of numerous incarnations of the Legion/Polaroid entity incarnating in numerous forms then Clare Mckenna simply represents a reinforcement of that concept: the same idea represented in another character and one who specifically alludes to having endured the same predicament as Catherine albeit in a previous incarnation.

To be fair the Magdalene is of less importance here than is the notion of perpetual incarnation. It is this the Group seeks to protect and further study when it dispatches Lara to prevent Ben Fisher's machinations from reaching fruition.

Hope to hear more from you all on this truly engaging topic.

Eth

[Guest Jim McLean]

How refreshing is discussion such as this?

Agreed.

If Season Two and subsequently Season Three sought, by different means, to present the notion of numerous incarnations of the Legion/Polaroid entity incarnating in numerous forms then Clare Mckenna simply represents a reinforcement of that concept: the same idea represented in another character and one who specifically alludes to having endured the same predicament as Catherine albeit in a previous incarnation.

That's a sound point; that the incarnations of a force over the relevance of a specific entity, be it Magdalene in Clare's case or any iconographic representation of Evil in TPM.

To be fair the Magdalene is of less importance here than is the notion of perpetual incarnation. It is this the Group seeks to protect and further study when it dispatches Lara to prevent Ben Fisher's machinations from reaching fruition.

I'm not entirely sure I'd dismiss the relevance of Magdalene. The parallel of tests seems to point to me some specific notion; that the talk that Clare was once tested as Catherine was points to be, from a writing perspective, as if its anchored to a mythical encounter. Whatever that encounter was, would point to who was testing "Clare" and as a result, confirm the nature of TPM. Given the strong roots in the show to Magdalene, my natural inclination is to assume who reference to Catherine stems from the many texts to do with Magdalene, though I'm not sure I know of a situation in which she herself was tested. Something that tested her faith but came out like Catherine, not believing. Again, I'm not sure what it is, but the comment is so specific (that she believed, was tested, didn't believe), that I think it carries more than a passing comment - it seems rooted in something else.

[ethsnafu]

Ahh! I see where you going with this and admit it is an intriguing idea and as you clearly have more affinity for the narrative process than I I apologise if my suggestion seems absurd.

Whilst I have no concrete evidence to support this I wonder if the comparison can be made between the story of Mary Magdalene being exorcised of a number of demons and the biblical tradition that notes Legion was a conglomerate of entities also. I do not propose we manipulate Biblical mythos in anyway, I have far too much respect than that, but wonder if the writers saw shades of the Legion mythos in those ancient biblical accounts.

Could the inference be, purely in our universe, that the Magdalene herself was tested, through possession, by Legion/Polaroid Man and its incarnations as surely as Catherine was tested also?

[Beerbelch]

BEER-----> Speaking of Cathrine, it was Megan's birthday yesterday.

BELCH

[Guest Jim McLean]

Ahh! I see where you going with this and admit it is an intriguing idea and as you clearly have more affinity for the narrative process than I I apologise if my suggestion seems absurd.

Not at all, I was just wondering if your deeper archive of theology - particularly in gnosticism - had any potential ideas.

Whilst I have no concrete evidence to support this I wonder if the comparison can be made between the story of Mary Magdalene being exorcised of a number of demons and the biblical tradition that notes Legion was a conglomerate of entities also. I do not propose we manipulate Biblical mythos in anyway, I have far too much respect than that, but wonder if the writers saw shades of the Legion mythos in those ancient biblical accounts.

I did wonder that myself; if that was somehow the test. I don't think we're being manipulating Biblical mythos, because I wasn't looking for an answer that we could, for our pleasure, link to her line, but whether the line itself derived from some specific event; some reference to the research that went into this episode.

If it was as you suggest, the only problem is the catayst wouldn't be Legion, as it was Jesus who cast out the demons, which would place Jesus in the same context as she refers to Catherine's TPM situation - and that seems unlikely.

What I did wonder was a vague recollection from my old religious study days over Mary's uncertainity during the ressurrection, and I came up with this gnostic reference - this is from a Wiki source, so be wary but this section was interesting:

"Why John portrays Mary as initially not recognising Jesus, even though she had known him well for a long time, is something of much debate. One theory is that, since Luke records two disciples as failing to recognise a post-death appearance of Jesus, the physical form of Jesus after resurrection must have been different, either due to the resurrection process itself, or due to the ordeal of crucifixion. More down-to-earth explanations have also been advanced, the most prominent being that Mary's tears had clouded her vision, or alternately that she is so focused on recovering Jesus' body, that she is temporarily blind to its being in front of her. However, John Calvin, and many other Christians, read this as a metaphor: that Mary's blindness despite seeing Jesus represents the blindness, according to Christians, of non-Christians who have already been informed about Jesus."

While not relevant to TPM per se, it is an instance where Mary who believed was in some way tested and didn't believe in the results, or at least not at first.

The only downside of this is that it doesn't account for TPM, but would be a direct reference to simply being tested and not believing in what you see before you - which does indeed relate to Catherine and TPM. Not quite as exciting and series relevant as Clare offering a parallel incarnation of light to Legion's incarnations of darkness, but in respect of the writer, I do wonder if this instance is what is being referred to.

Either that or it is an unrelated comparison. Either way, I still see TPM as Legion in season two's opener, whether its a MG Legion or not is speculative, but I like E's hypothesis that it is. But I do wonder if this fascinating quote you dug up E, refers to some of the Gnostic research done for this episode, it just.. feels like an undisclosed reference.

[ethsnafu]

Fantastic stuff....

I must admit that I will allow myself, nay treat myself, to a little grey-matter time to give your thoughts the necessary and due response but initially I am drawn to your closing comments which I may be able to shed a little light upon though I doubt if this will afford us any greater degree of certainty in this issue. I think I may be able to pinpoint an essay that seems to have inspired a few themes, if not direct quotes, with regards to Anamnesis. To allow for proper comparrison I shall add some of the relevant episodic lines.

CLARE: (V.O.) "She suffered every indignity from them and she could not return to the Father. In a human body, she came to be confined."

CLARE: (V.O.) "And thus, from age to age, she passed from body to body, into one female body after the other. Thus, she became the lost sheep."

I believe the following was taken from an account of the life of Simon Magus, the heretical Gnostic who believed in the perpetual incarnation of 'Ennoia' or the Divine Feminine and whilst there are legions of references to his mystery one specific text uses almost the exact phraseology as employed in the poetic voice-over.

..Through their desire to reunite, these male and female beings would only increase their separation by multiplying their number. They captured Ennoia and shut her up in a human body, forcing her to wander through the ages from one body to another on the wheel of generation...While teaching in the Phoenician city of Tyre, the divine Simon beheld a courtesan on the roof of a brothel. Her name was Helena, and he recognized her immediately as the current incarnation of Ennoia, His First Thought, the Holy Spirit, the Mother of All. She was the Lost Sheep, forced by her progeny the angels to wander through the centuries from vessel to vessel (including that of Helen of Troy), until she ended up at the brothel in Tyre.

Whilst I concur that this does little to answer all our questions it may shed some light on the branch of theological thought that was the inspiration for Clare McKenna.

As promised I will employ my meagre mind and reply more fully to your wonderful thoughts,

Best wishes,

Eth