"borrowed Time" (3rd Season)

[4th Horseman]

Well, my wise and knowledgeable friend, it is now 3:30 in the morning and I have just finished watching 2 further episodes of Season 3 and I'm beginning to feel rather sheepish... (Let's see, there are the Roosters and the Owls and now, apparently, the Sheepishes...) Geez, what a schmuck I am... Anyway, here I am a total newbie shooting my mouth off on this nice forum about how lousy the 3rd Season is (of course I had only seen the first few shows and the first couple are pretty lousy) and here I was for the last hour and a half held TOTALLY spellbound by "Collateral Damage" and "The Sound of Snow" D*MN these were great shows! I loved the scene in CD where Peter Watts is pleading with Frank to help him find his daughter... BEAUTIFULLY done; absolutely beautiful. It was nice to see Peter a bit more human again... However, from all preceding appearances even in Season 2, I find it a bit hard to swallow that the MillenniuM group would actually be experimenting with biotoxins on their own troops; what the h*ll does that have to do with anything that the Group supposedly stood for during the first 2 Seasons???

Anyway, I guess this will teach me to keep my BIG oriface closed until I've watched the rest of the bloody 3rd Season. Now, I see why you all are being so nice to me; just like you'd speak gently around a poor senseless wretch floundering about hoping he doesn't hurt himself...

: )

Heaven - (I hope you dont mind if i shorten your moniker to that because with all the underlining and symbols, it just makes it easier)....I appreciate your comments. I must warn you however, that there are many of the minions here at TIWWA who possess far greater knowledge than i in regards to the mythology and ethos of MillenniuM. I would normally post a few names here, but in hopes of not offending someone whom i might accidentally omit, i will just leave it at that.

Again, i believe it is Chip Johanssen who says in the first season interviews that Carter felt that the concept of evil had been reduced in our society to a level of unimportance. It was this "dilution of evil" that drove CC the entire first season, presenting evil where ever and whenever he could as an entity that most certainly, even with the advance of technology, was still at its core undiluted by the constraints of either time or social/scientific advancement. No matter how far we had "come" as a species, there would always be this eternal, relentless, transpicous "presence" or "manifestation" of evil, unclouded by either the base alloy of hyprocisy or diluted by the march of time.

Let me reiterate that the opinions expressed here are my own and are not an attempt to reflect any more than just that.

I dont want to get back into a dissection of S1 ,2, or 3 because we have been there and done that on previous threads. Suffice to say, in my opinion, the show was headed in the right direction with S1 as represented by this quote from the Nov 16-22 1996 TV Guide which featured a 4 page article on MillenniuM.

Chris Carter:

"Lukewarm is not interesting to me, it may be graphic in some cases because it MUST be. Thats what i do. If you just deal with the goodness and selfessness, it means nothing, unless it is in jeopardy. That is what people dont understand about the violence. It is irresponsible to tell sweet stories because I think it is Pollyanish and it does a disservice to the audience".

David Nutter, who directed episodes for X-files and MillenniuM echoes Carters thoughts when he says that the show's dark, violent images are necessary to counter the "fairy-tale world" in which most of society lives and is portrayed as such by other shows.

"It is our responsibility---our obligation---to show just how bad it can be". ----David Nutter TV Guide 1996.

I think with those references one can clearly see just how and in what direction the series was SUPPOSED to go. Unfortunately, as i have stated before, other commitments pulled Carter away to such an extent that he readily admits to not "staying up" with MillenniuM, going so far as to admit that he, at the time of the interview, had not personally viewed much of S2.

Unfortunately, I dont think Carter had a whole lot of options to work with in his return to S3. Given the fact that the Group had now become Frank's nemesis, along with the deterioration of his relationship with Peter...(obviously, via the S3 interview, not how he would have planned for the show's direction to take), CC had no other choice than to continue the continuity of S2 into S3, whether he liked it or not. There was really no way to go back to the concept of S1 except for the sole purpose of portraying evil again as a undeniable, seething, ever consuming presence.

In ending, AGAIN, let me reiterate that this is my opinion. There are others who have a different opinion and thats cool too....we are all in this together, but that doesnt mean we have to see everything in the same light...

here is the final paragraph of the TV Guide article...Lance Henriksen speaking:

If you are one of those who finds the show too grisly, Henriksen suggests you get over it..

"Instead of having a V-chip, we should have the B.S.-chip. We need to take the B.S. off the television. This show is not B.S."

4th Horseman...

[Guest A Stranger]

It is irresponsible to tell sweet stories because I think it is Pollyanish and it does a disservice to the audience".

I remember this article and it's a great quote.

A good point was made in an earlier post as to why they didn't just slowly try to bring the Group back to what it was in year one instead of going full out bad guys with them. My feeling is that they saw it as an oppurtunity to create a darker atmosphere, one that was missing from year two. Watch "Skull and Bones" and tell me it doesn't fit the vibe of season one. The overall tone and technique of storytelling in season three was much more in line with season one. Which is much more realistic, mature, subtle and I think, much more emotionally rewarding.

And the Sammual/Sammiel's from PPTAD and Borrowed Time are never necesarriy said to be the same person. Frank doesn't seem to think so, or never says it. He does however make the connection that we do. I really like this element becuase it feels like we are in Frank's place where we can see the connection but don't exactly understand the specifics of it. There is that disconnection between the mortals and the divine.

[4th Horseman]

I remember this article and it's a great quote.

A good point was made in an earlier post as to why they didn't just slowly try to bring the Group back to what it was in year one instead of going full out bad guys with them. My feeling is that they saw it as an oppurtunity to create a darker atmosphere, one that was missing from year two. Watch "Skull and Bones" and tell me it doesn't fit the vibe of season one. The overall tone and technique of storytelling in season three was much more in line with season one. Which is much more realistic, mature, subtle and I think, much more emotionally rewarding.

And the Sammual/Sammiel's from PPTAD and Borrowed Time are never necesarriy said to be the same person. Frank doesn't seem to think so, or never says it. He does however make the connection that we do. I really like this element becuase it feels like we are in Frank's place where we can see the connection but don't exactly understand the specifics of it. There is that disconnection between the mortals and the divine.

A Stranger...LOL...you were one of those i was going to mention as being one of the "minions" who know more about the ethos and mystique of MNM than i do. And here you have posted a great response, proving my point. I omitted the fact that i as well thought that S3 seemed to move back towards the "central point" of S1. Many instances substantiate our claims...number one being, i think, that the Lucy Butler/Frank Black relationship was "maturing", that even though they represented polar opposites, there seemed to be an implied understanding of each other, especially in "Antipas" where Lucy grabs Frank's hand in the hospital and says "we could rule the world"...

Skull and Bones could have easily fit into the pattern of S1, however, the one thing that i find hard to fathom is why Cheryl Andrews was killed off In "Skull and Bones" Did i miss something? Let me get the timeline right...Andrews is arrested in Germany in "The Hand of St. Sebastian" for conspiracy to commit murder, but then in "Skull and Bones" she magically re-appears, only to be killed off in Germany because she discovered some kind of mutation on a body two weeks after a radio installation site went on line in Alaska? Is there some kind of continuity here that i am missing?

also, good point about Sammual/Sammiel....the description given this particular entity would be congruent with both episodes...

4th Horseman

[Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___]

Hey Joe...(wasnt that a song by Hendrix?)..LOL...i could not agree with you more...i have copied and pasted my response to this whole issure from another thread..

Heaven - why do you say you need to be straightened out? The beauty of this site is that we all can post what we see with our own eyes, what we believe in both our hearts and our minds. Your opinons and reflections are just as important as mine or anyone elses. What it all boils down to is a sense of personal perspective...the opinion posted below is probably a bit harsh, but it is a reflection of how i feel, without being diluted by the injection of hypocrisy..

by the way, welcome to TIWWA....

Carter's very first reaction in the S3 disc is to claim that he came back to "try to get the show back to what he had origionally intended it to be". His enthusiasm for S1 was only matched by his blatent disregard for S2 as he allowed M&W to wrest control of the rudder and allowed MillenniuM to be steered into unknown waters, the likes of which obviously were not met with anything other than disdain from your lead actor. The very things that Lance, Tom Wright, and many others grew distasteful of took root right under Carter's nose. The changing of Frank's clothing, the group now becoming a sinister accumulation of control freaks, his best friend Peter Watts now turned against him. All of these were, by all acounts if you listen carefully to the various interviews in S3 were definately harbingers of doom for the show, of which i dont believe would ever have occurred had Carter remained at the helm. Then, after M&W effectively ruined the origional direction and intent, (even after being trusted by Carter due to their work on the X-files), Carter mounts his good steed and tries to portray himself as the "Knight in shining armor", coming back to save the day. In his interview after S3 you can tell in his voice and his demeanor that he truely was shocked by the direction M&W had taken the show, embarrassed if you will to the point of feeling he alone could bring the show back to the outstanding concepts given birth during S1. You cannot walk away from a child at an early age, then come back later on and expect it to be the same child as when you left. Millennium was like the infant of a father who was never home during those important formative years, and in its infancy, when, just as a child in real life, it needed guidance, direction and a sense of purpose, it was abandoned. Had Carter only marginally been more involved with S2, i feel it would have made all the difference in the world..thats my two cents...

I do find it very strange that the same angel, Samiel, was depicted in PPTD as an angel of justice, whereas in Borrowed Time, his purpose was entirely different. I refuse to get into specifics because a search of this site will reveal that Samiel has been discussed in depth and at length here with really no more to add or subtract..

4th Horseman

Okay, now I REALLY feel very silly; I just finished watching "Antipas" and here Lucy Butler is back in all her glory. Geez, and I've gone on and on about how the entire mythogy, etc. from the first two Seasons has been summarily jettisoned. All right, from now on I absolutely PROMISE never to bring up subjects again that I apparently know NOTHING about!

I give my solemn word that I am not gonna say another single thing about this subjet until I bloody well finish the watching the rest of the 3rd Season.

But, I might start another topic...

: )

[Guest A Stranger]

A Stranger...LOL...you were one of those i was going to mention as being one of the "minions" who know more about the ethos and mystique of MNM than i do. And here you have posted a great response, proving my point. I omitted the fact that i as well thought that S3 seemed to move back towards the "central point" of S1. Many instances substantiate our claims...number one being, i think, that the Lucy Butler/Frank Black relationship was "maturing", that even though they represented polar opposites, there seemed to be an implied understanding of each other, especially in "Antipas" where Lucy grabs Frank's hand in the hospital and says "we could rule the world"...

Skull and Bones could have easily fit into the pattern of S1, however, the one thing that i find hard to fathom is why Cheryl Andrews was killed off In "Skull and Bones" Did i miss something? Let me get the timeline right...Andrews is arrested in Germany in "The Hand of St. Sebastian" for conspiracy to commit murder, but then in "Skull and Bones" she magically re-appears, only to be killed off in Germany because she discovered some kind of mutation on a body two weeks after a radio installation site went on line in Alaska? Is there some kind of continuity here that i am missing?

also, good point about Sammual/Sammiel....the description given this particular entity would be congruent with both episodes...

4th Horseman

Yeah, the Cheryl Andrews aspect is very messy, I don't think "Skull and Bones" is flawless. My feeling is that they were trying to imply that the reason the real reason the Group was after her in "Sebastian" had more to do with creating a smokescreen about secret societies and ancient relics for Frank to cover up what they really were doing. It's a bit of a stretch to say the least but I think what the season three writers were saying is "remember last year? Forget it happened." I think the Group were doing some biomedical experiments and she uncovered them, that jibes with what the Group seem to be up to in season three. But yeah, that element doesn't sit well however you look at it.

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Got to remember Chris Carter wsa trying to fix MM in season 3. He wanted the group go back to being what they originally suppose to be https://www.academy-group.com/

[Libby]

Interestingly, the name "Pettey" occurs in S2's "Sense and Antisense", written by Chip, as well as in S3's "Skull and Bones", co-written by Chip and Ken Horton.

In "Sense and Antisense", Dr Pettey of the mysterious Center for Infectious Diseases briefs the cops and Frank and Giebelhouse about Patient Zero. In "Skull and Bones" Homer B Pettey's home is searched by Hollis and contains dissection apparatus.

I wonder if Chip meant for there to be this connection between these episodes, and if so what the significance is.

[Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___]

Heaven - (I hope you dont mind if i shorten your moniker to that because with all the underlining and symbols, it just makes it easier)....I appreciate your comments. I must warn you however, that there are many of the minions here at TIWWA who possess far greater knowledge than i in regards to the mythology and ethos of MillenniuM. I would normally post a few names here, but in hopes of not offending someone whom i might accidentally omit, i will just leave it at that.

Again, i believe it is Chip Johanssen who says in the first season interviews that Carter felt that the concept of evil had been reduced in our society to a level of unimportance. It was this "dilution of evil" that drove CC the entire first season, presenting evil where ever and whenever he could as an entity that most certainly, even with the advance of technology, was still at its core undiluted by the constraints of either time or social/scientific advancement. No matter how far we had "come" as a species, there would always be this eternal, relentless, transpicous "presence" or "manifestation" of evil, unclouded by either the base alloy of hyprocisy or diluted by the march of time.

Let me reiterate that the opinions expressed here are my own and are not an attempt to reflect any more than just that.

I dont want to get back into a dissection of S1 ,2, or 3 because we have been there and done that on previous threads. Suffice to say, in my opinion, the show was headed in the right direction with S1 as represented by this quote from the Nov 16-22 1996 TV Guide which featured a 4 page article on MillenniuM.

Chris Carter:

"Lukewarm is not interesting to me, it may be graphic in some cases because it MUST be. Thats what i do. If you just deal with the goodness and selfessness, it means nothing, unless it is in jeopardy. That is what people dont understand about the violence. It is irresponsible to tell sweet stories because I think it is Pollyanish and it does a disservice to the audience".

David Nutter, who directed episodes for X-files and MillenniuM echoes Carters thoughts when he says that the show's dark, violent images are necessary to counter the "fairy-tale world" in which most of society lives and is portrayed as such by other shows.

"It is our responsibility---our obligation---to show just how bad it can be". ----David Nutter TV Guide 1996.

I think with those references one can clearly see just how and in what direction the series was SUPPOSED to go. Unfortunately, as i have stated before, other commitments pulled Carter away to such an extent that he readily admits to not "staying up" with MillenniuM, going so far as to admit that he, at the time of the interview, had not personally viewed much of S2.

Unfortunately, I dont think Carter had a whole lot of options to work with in his return to S3. Given the fact that the Group had now become Frank's nemesis, along with the deterioration of his relationship with Peter...(obviously, via the S3 interview, not how he would have planned for the show's direction to take), CC had no other choice than to continue the continuity of S2 into S3, whether he liked it or not. There was really no way to go back to the concept of S1 except for the sole purpose of portraying evil again as a undeniable, seething, ever consuming presence.

In ending, AGAIN, let me reiterate that this is my opinion. There are others who have a different opinion and thats cool too....we are all in this together, but that doesnt mean we have to see everything in the same light...

here is the final paragraph of the TV Guide article...Lance Henriksen speaking:

If you are one of those who finds the show too grisly, Henriksen suggests you get over it..

"Instead of having a V-chip, we should have the B.S.-chip. We need to take the B.S. off the television. This show is not B.S."

4th Horseman...

Excellent reply... Thanks for your graciousness too. I think that I am beginning to understand the series a bit more 'wholistically' now rather than seperating out the 2nd Season so distinctly. Now I am starting to see some irregularities and disharmonies with the overall theme and initial direction of the show. I just really loved all the symbolic stuff and I thought it was done beautifully; but my strong tendancy is to look at the aesthetic value and pure art of something in itself rather than how logically it fits into the whole.

Again this reminds me that I need to get going here and catch up... : )

[Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___]

Interestingly, the name "Pettey" occurs in S2's "Sense and Antisense", written by Chip, as well as in S3's "Skull and Bones", co-written by Chip and Ken Horton.

In "Sense and Antisense", Dr Pettey of the mysterious Center for Infectious Diseases briefs the cops and Frank and Giebelhouse about Patient Zero. In "Skull and Bones" Homer B Pettey's home is searched by Hollis and contains dissection apparatus.

I wonder if Chip meant for there to be this connection between these episodes, and if so what the significance is.

Ah, thank you Elder Moderater Libby for mentioning one of my favorite episodes ("Sense and Antisense").

BTW, in the other discussions of who just *might* be able to fill Lance Henriksen's shoes did any of you EVER consider Clarence Williams III....??? Hmmm...? That is one B@d@ss dude!

[The Old Man]

Interestingly, the name "Pettey" occurs in S2's "Sense and Antisense", written by Chip, as well as in S3's "Skull and Bones", co-written by Chip and Ken Horton.

In "Sense and Antisense", Dr Pettey of the mysterious Center for Infectious Diseases briefs the cops and Frank and Giebelhouse about Patient Zero. In "Skull and Bones" Homer B Pettey's home is searched by Hollis and contains dissection apparatus.

I wonder if Chip meant for there to be this connection between these episodes, and if so what the significance is.

Nicely spotted Libby! Don't forget to add it to the trivia for both episodes if you haven't already!