Goodbye Charlie

[Guest Jim McLean]

Okay, I have to check now because I swear at one point one of the faces in the painting was blacked out.

Did you check? Because I don't recall that. I still feel its just to show how connected the character is to the mythology, not that he is actually leaping into paintings; it just clarifies he won't be found because he doesn't exist in the same constraints as we do. There is something otherworldly about him.

Damn I may have to rewatch this one now.

[ethsnafu]

I think its just a method of telling the audience that he's not just legged it; that he has transcended away from this plain

Yup agreed, planes are what it's all about.

Sorry to add a post to a redundant thread but it was my latest viewed episode so I hope I can be excused.

I feel that Kiley's visage in the painting is simply illustrative of his ability to transcend the planes of existence. In Kiley's emotional recollection of his intervention in the case of a moribund patient he indicates that he saw within her eyes her own desperation to transcend this mortal plane of suffering. For anyone who has ever shared in the demise of a patient in a critical care setting there is a tangible resonance that cannot be explained by simple emotional response. A physician as spent an age honing and subjugating his feelings in this regard yet that moment of 'lift' has never ceased to empower me. It seems to me that in emphatically sharing this woman's demise with the intensity that he describes that he psychically shared her moment of transcendence affording him knowledge of multiple planes of existence hitherto hidden.

Kiley's empathic experience of suffering and the ultimate transcendence of this through death allowed him to view this physical existence as simply an aspect of 'being', if physical pain, indignity and the destruction of 'I' is all we have left then the simple solution is simply to transcend this mode of existence.

What seems to have ignited Riley's crusade is an irreconcilable conflict with deity. With a direct experience of a transcendental plane of existence he cannot resolve the enigma of why God allows such indescribable torment and suffering to occur over such long spans of time when there is simple solution to such dolor. In fleeting moments he stands as the everyman, contemplating, as I have, why a child is allowed to scream for days in torment yet in others he is a pariah, standing for a revolution society cannot comprehend.

An relevant aspect of this story reflects societies ongoing struggle with the notion of euthanasia. We are offered Lara's seeming acceptance of Kiley's reasoning and Frank's condemnation of the same and it is interesting to note that Lara's abilities are somewhat transcendental in nature. Her angelic awareness and visionary abilities are a stark contrast to the visceral, wretched images Frank endures and it makes a satisfying conclusion to assume that each bases their evaluation of Kiley's remit on their own perceptual concept of death.

One startling aspect of this story for me is Lara's impassioned plea to Kiley to teach her to transcend the planes. She moves with such aplomb from aggressive interrogation to desperate, ravenous longing that we see in her a woman who as evolved to point where the personal reconciliation of her experiences is more important than morality. In this she shares diluted tendencies like Kiley's.

At first the karaoke element of this episode jarred with me and I assumed it to be a simple Morgan and Wong hallmark, the marrying of the macabre with the sugary sweet yet on reflected viewing it is befitting. The easy listening tunes have all the resonance of 'last dance' numbers and they serve to illustrate how celebratory and insignificant the process of dying has become to Kiley. It is no more a moment of profundity but a simple action, an inconsequential moment designed to propel his subjects to God.

Very deep in many ways this episode ages well but I'm especially interested to hear any thoughts any of you may have on Lara's impassioned plea for assistance to a man she is berating only moments before. Does she attempt to make a deal with the devil or soes she truly believe she is in the presence of an exhalted soul?

Edited October 22, 2007 by ethsnafu

[4th Horseman]

Very deep in many ways this episode ages well but I'm especially interested to hear any thoughts any of you may have on Lara's impassioned plea for assistance to a man she is berating only moments before. Does she attempt to make a deal with the devil or soes she truly believe she is in the presence of an exhalted soul?

Are you talking about the interview scene?? My take on it is simply an exhibit of desperation. Lara wants/needs some kind of understanding that her gift (seeing angels) is not in vain, that there is some reason behind the visions. A first response, i will have to re-watch it again to refine my response, but thanks for once again delving into more than just the superficial....

4th Horseman

[Guest Jim McLean]

Are you talking about the interview scene?? My take on it is simply an exhibit of desperation. Lara wants/needs some kind of understanding that her gift (seeing angels) is not in vain, that there is some reason behind the visions. A first response, i will have to re-watch it again to refine my response, but thanks for once again delving into more than just the superficial....

4th Horseman

I must admit, that's what I recall getting from the scene, but even though it was a few months ago that I watched the episode, I probably need to rewatch with the context that e'nafu describe (and incidently e - with a place with low traffic and episode discussions, I think necromancy on a long term (or slightly short-term) is ALWAYS justifiable especially when you bring forth such in depth postulations. Don't stop).

Again, I'll have to re-watch, but my latent vibes made me feel he was utterly ambiguous as to who he working for and not just uncertain how to equate the role of the deity in practical terms. I got the impression the end conclusion was the viewer would be left to decide whether the role he was forced to commit was on behalf of good or evil. Though my brain is sketchy on the dots at this time.

[ethsnafu]

It's actually less about her goal and more about the moment she chooses to achieve it and who's help she seeks to enlist. The original concept of Lara was to provide an alternative narrative with regards to the visionary experience. The aim was to dissect a more transcendental, less practical ability than Frank's and the effect it would have upon its possessor. Rather than experiencing an ability grounded within oneself Lara is subject to an external, sentient, formless awareness that seeks only to pose questions whilst Frank's answers them. Naturally it is understandable that she grasps for every possible assistance in reconciling an experience she cannot comprehend but my concern is NOT that she seeks validation but that she openly begs for help from a man she is berating for murder.

What I perceived was a moment where she teetered close to becoming what Kiley represents, an individual so consumed by the profundity of his experience that morality is a mere insignificance.

Kiley is a simple prophecy of what Lara is to become, an individual for whom the profound effect of their own mysticism strips them of self and reduces them to non-cognitive expressions of their beliefs. Kiley became a man for whom morality, law and theological law meant nothing as, consumed by experience, he became an agent of such and was denied any aspect of choice and self. At the conclusions of Lara's journey she too sacrifices a sanity she admits in Anamnesis is fragile in order to obtain the gnosis she believes her path demands. Her illicit initiation, one which the group denied and actively sought to prevent, enriches this scene in 'Charlie' as a portent of one woman's desperate plight.

I don't think you can watch the interrogation scene without experiencing her desperation nor can I accept that to beg a murderer demands such a nonchalant response in viewers.

[Beerbelch]

BEER----> Has anyone seen the episode of 'Lie To Me' called 'Veronica'. I felt it had a stromg resemblence to 'Goodbye Charlie'. It was an interesting episode.

BELCH

[ethsnafu]

I think I've seen it. That's the one with Annette O'Toole isn't it playing the lady with Alzheimer's? If it is, it was a superbly well done episode and Annette in particular was superb in her role.

Eth

[Beerbelch]

BEER---> Yes, it was Clark Kent's mother (Annette O'Toole) playing the role of someone with Alzheimers. She had a very 'helpful' doctor as her living quarter's administrator.

BELCH

[seesthru]

I just couldnt' get in to this episode at all. see the strike throughs? Not intentional . When I post on these forums it either automatically underlines or strikethroughs. Hard as the dickens to get those buttons turned off! Anyway, I guess I am pretty superficial regarding shows. I never see the deeper meaning or the symbolism unless it's blatantly obvious. I may have to give thos one a new look.

[Earthnut]

Don't feel too bad, I often miss some of the deeper meanings and symbolism, but catch up after watching the episode a couple more times. Even then, Goodbye Charlie isn't a favorite of mine. I'm thinking it's because of the subject matter and of course, to me, the annoying song. I didn't even like it when it first played on the air.

Seethru, post something in the help section about your forum glitches and then staff will try and fix it for you. It's worked for me every time.