Hello, and you may not like this

[Guest CrusaderFrank]

I loved Millennium; I thought it was far and away the "edgiest" most well written and conceived show on TV. In addition to being out right creepy at times, it was educational.

It featured one of the all-time best villains in Legion as manifested through Lucy Butler and when I heard Lara Means recite what was later identified as "The Thunder, Perfect Mind" I had an inconceivable Goosebumps feeling that I knew the poetry! I later looked up the Nag Hammadi Library and have been grateful to the show for the introduction to Gnosticism ever since.

Prior to the DVD’s, through the long, dark years, I only saw an occasional “Millennium” late at night I think on SciFi Network. Now that I have the DVD’s I have a great mix of longing and anger at how the show flew off track. We had some of the best episode ever including “In Arcadia Ego” “Lamentations” and “Somehow, Satan Got Behind Me” and we had some of the worst.

In going through the Second Season, I believe that Morgan and Wong are primarily responsible for the shows premature demise. I found, without exception, their writing to be sophomoric, banal and worse of all – lazy! It was as is Beavis and Butthead were given the jobs of Head Writers. Millennium Group…evil? WTF is that!? Why kill Catherine Black? The Smoking Man’s Morley’s in The Old Man’s basement. Oh, Yeah? What’s the plan? Why not just put a Grassy Knoll there and tie it in to the Kennedy Assassination as well?

If you were to question them under the klieg lights and tank them up with Sodium Pentathol, I’d love to ask, “When you ruining one of the most promising TV shows by making the Millennium Group evil, did you have a plan or were you just making Stuff up as you went?” I’m sure they had no plan, they just loved the Stupid, lazy, “Ohhhh it’s a Government plot” twist.

What a foul harvest we reaped in Season Three from the vapidness of Wong & Morgan when we have to watch Peter Watts in Hannibal Lecter’s basement in “Skull and Bones” tell Agent Hollis that Millennium Group is eliminating “troublemakers.” Sorry, that's not what the show and the Group were supposed to be about. The Season Three writers were all dealt a terrible starting hand by the incredible damage done in Season Two. They did the best they could but the damage was already done.

I saw the interview with Chris Carter discussing the mostly lost Second Season and as I suspected, he was too tied up with X-Files to see Morgan & Wong steering the franchise into the iceberg.

What a shame!

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

I loved Millennium; I thought it was far and away the "edgiest" most well written and conceived show on TV. In addition to being out right creepy at times, it was educational.

It featured one of the all-time best villains in Legion as manifested through Lucy Butler and when I heard Lara Means recite what was later identified as "The Thunder, Perfect Mind" I had an inconceivable Goosebumps feeling that I knew the poetry! I later looked up the Nag Hammadi Library and have been grateful to the show for the introduction to Gnosticism ever since.

Prior to the DVD’s, through the long, dark years, I only saw an occasional “Millennium” late at night I think on SciFi Network. Now that I have the DVD’s I have a great mix of longing and anger at how the show flew off track. We had some of the best episode ever including “In Arcadia Ego” “Lamentations” and “Somehow, Satan Got Behind Me” and we had some of the worst.

In going through the Second Season, I believe that Morgan and Wong are primarily responsible for the shows premature demise. I found, without exception, their writing to be sophomoric, banal and worse of all – lazy! It was as is Beavis and Butthead were given the jobs of Head Writers. Millennium Group…evil? WTF is that!? Why kill Catherine Black? The Smoking Man’s Morley’s in The Old Man’s basement. Oh, Yeah? What’s the plan? Why not just put a Grassy Knoll there and tie it in to the Kennedy Assassination as well?

If you were to question them under the klieg lights and tank them up with Sodium Pentathol, I’d love to ask, “When you ruining one of the most promising TV shows by making the Millennium Group evil, did you have a plan or were you just making Stuff up as you went?” I’m sure they had no plan, they just loved the Stupid, lazy, “Ohhhh it’s a Government plot” twist.

What a foul harvest we reaped in Season Three from the vapidness of Wong & Morgan when we have to watch Peter Watts in Hannibal Lecter’s basement in “Skull and Bones” tell Agent Hollis that Millennium Group is eliminating “troublemakers.” Sorry, that's not what the show and the Group were supposed to be about. The Season Three writers were all dealt a terrible starting hand by the incredible damage done in Season Two. They did the best they could but the damage was already done.

I saw the interview with Chris Carter discussing the mostly lost Second Season and as I suspected, he was too tied up with X-Files to see Morgan & Wong steering the franchise into the iceberg.

What a shame!

Well, I respectfully disagree with much of what you say, but I do see where you are coming from, and it is a very slippery slope that the shows creators have to walk on. They have to try to let the writers do their thing without interfering too much in the creative process, and it's not always easy to see if they are taking the show in the right direction or running it off track. It's hard to say if the writers doomed this show in the end, or if the show would have fizzled regardless of the writing. We've seen many examples of shows that are intelligent and well written, but simply can't seem to hold an audience for whatever reason. Nothing in the three seasons of Millennium would have led me to believe this show should have been canceled for lack of quality. In other words, I thought it was great from start to finish. However, the show did seem to end prematurely, and maybe this is due to that fact that many people have the same view as you or had altogether different problems with the writing. It seems like it would be such a hard task to decide what direction to take with the writing that it would be almost a crap shoot. On one hand, they have to keep the shows faithful happy. By the shows faithful, I am referring to the kind of people we have here who continue to have an interest in the show and expected intelligent writing with real substance. On the other hand, they have to try to appeal to a large enough audience to sustain the shows' existence, so they probably have to cheapen the show a little bit to appeal to those with a short attention span and those who don't want to hurt their brains by thinking too much. Then, of course, they have to walk a thin line between adding enough shocks and surprises to the plot without going off the deep end and losing their viewers in that way. With all the people involved in the creative process, and the wide range of viewers they are trying to appeal to, I have yet to see a show that has not, in my humble opinion, gone off track in its' writing at some point, and this includes the great ones, such as X-files and NYPD Blue. It seems like most of the shows I have liked have lost their way in the final season or two, and that includes the ones mentioned, as well as shows like "Northern Exposure" in particular. I think this is partly due to running out of new ideas, and probably partly due to desperation as the show starts to fall off, mostly because people just tend to naturally grow tired of certain things and want something new. Then there are certain factors we don't even necessarily know about, such as favorite actors wanting to move onto other projects and being accommodated by the writers and written off. Also, I can see where different people like different writers and not others, but to me, Morgan and Wong did some of the best writing on the show, and I don't say that to be argumentative, but just as my personal opinion. With such classics as Beware the Dog, Monster, Curse of Frank Black, 19:19, St. Sebastian, The Time Is Now, and so on, I have no complaints about them, and although they did dictate the direction of the show at the end of S2, the point of no return wasn't actually crossed until the beginning of S3 by other writers. This is TV, and anything can happen, so Catherine could still have been miraculously cured, although I think she wanted to move on. Also, it was other writers who really took Peter Watts character to the dark side in Skull and Bones. Either way, I really have no complaints about the writing, and don't agree with recent claims that Carter was too preoccupied with X-files and let MM slip. I think the show was just too intelligent and too much for thinking people that it couldn't hold its ratings enough to make the network people happy.

[4th Horseman]

What a shame!

Crusader Frank...first off, welcome to TIWWA...amongst the vapid siroccos that blow across our lives on a daily basis, you will find quite an oasis here to quench your thirst. This board has an amazing number of members who possess an insupposable degree of knowledge in regards to the various sundry issues addressed by MillenniuM..

This issue has been addressed to death here in various other forms. The perverbial question reigns supreme: Which was the better season? There are those here, Millenniumisbliss for example who could not find any problematic issues to bring forth concerning the Morgan and Wong dominated S2. I happen to find multiple points of antipathy, yet i respect all dissenting opinions, for that is what, (and you will find as your time accrues here) makes this board so wonderful. We can disagree on a most civil of levels and that speaks very highly of the maturity of TIWWA's members.

I have made my viewpoints, undiluted by the dross of hyprocisy, very clear and forthright concerning this issue. However, in the interest of brevity, i will tell you that i am in complete agreement with your post. However, i also think that Chris Carter shares an equal if not greater degree of responsibility for the "mid-stream" change of directions during S2. Morgan and Wong have always appropriated their intent to change MillenniuM from the darker aspects of S1 to a lighter, more complicated (secularly wise) in S2...yet, Carter was too busy with other projects to "keep tabs" on HIS concept, even admitting, albeit not in a direct sense, that he tried to get the show back to his origional concept during the final season.

Don't get me wrong, several episodes of S2 were spectacular. Midnight of the Century, The Mikado, Owls, Roosters, and the final two episodes were very well done. But the true darkness did not return until Carter once again took over the reigns in S3...I am left to consider the quote from Bletch in "Blood Relatives" about how the first two weeks of a kitten's life was the determining factor whether or not it would be tame or feral. There is some parallel here between the first week or S1 of MillenniuM, where the show had contact with its creator, and S2 (or the 2nd week) when the show lost its way because it really had no direction, becoming feral to the point that it wound up never being the show it could have been had Carter remained in charge...

just my opinions...

till the last change...be done...

4th Horseman...

[Raven Wolf]

C-Frank....

Welcome to TIWWA~and....WOW~Have you considered being a part of the Episode Guide Graham is working on here?

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

What a shame!

Crusader Frank...first off, welcome to TIWWA...amongst the vapid siroccos that blow across our lives on a daily basis, you will find quite an oasis here to quench your thirst. This board has an amazing number of members who possess an insupposable degree of knowledge in regards to the various sundry issues addressed by MillenniuM..

This issue has been addressed to death here in various other forms. The perverbial question reigns supreme: Which was the better season? There are those here, Millenniumisbliss for example who could not find any problematic issues to bring forth concerning the Morgan and Wong dominated S2. I happen to find multiple points of antipathy, yet i respect all dissenting opinions, for that is what, (and you will find as your time accrues here) makes this board so wonderful. We can disagree on a most civil of levels and that speaks very highly of the maturity of TIWWA's members.

I have made my viewpoints, undiluted by the dross of hyprocisy, very clear and forthright concerning this issue. However, in the interest of brevity, i will tell you that i am in complete agreement with your post. However, i also think that Chris Carter shares an equal if not greater degree of responsibility for the "mid-stream" change of directions during S2. Morgan and Wong have always appropriated their intent to change MillenniuM from the darker aspects of S1 to a lighter, more complicated (secularly wise) in S2...yet, Carter was too busy with other projects to "keep tabs" on HIS concept, even admitting, albeit not in a direct sense, that he tried to get the show back to his origional concept during the final season.

Don't get me wrong, several episodes of S2 were spectacular. Midnight of the Century, The Mikado, Owls, Roosters, and the final two episodes were very well done. But the true darkness did not return until Carter once again took over the reigns in S3...I am left to consider the quote from Bletch in "Blood Relatives" about how the first two weeks of a kitten's life was the determining factor whether or not it would be tame or feral. There is some parallel here between the first week or S1 of MillenniuM, where the show had contact with its creator, and S2 (or the 2nd week) when the show lost its way because it really had no direction, becoming feral to the point that it wound up never being the show it could have been had Carter remained in charge...

just my opinions...

till the last change...be done...

4th Horseman...

Ahh, once again I am enlightened by the MM forum. I was not aware that Chris Carter had abandoned the project to that degree in S2, and I though that these claims were unfounded speculation. Somehow I always thought Chris was making significant contributions throughout the series. As for Morgan and Wong, I guess it all comes down to how much you liked S2, and it is no secret that it was my personal favorite.

By the way, I agree with the Horseman regarding this web site. It is refreshing to be able to discuss something with such a mature group and be able to disagree on something without all the immature jabs and mud slinging you find on public boards.

[4th Horseman]

Ahh, once again I am enlightened by the MM forum. I was not aware that Chris Carter had abandoned the project to that degree in S2, and I though that these claims were unfounded speculation. Somehow I always thought Chris was making significant contributions throughout the series. As for Morgan and Wong, I guess it all comes down to how much you liked S2, and it is no secret that it was my personal favorite.

By the way, I agree with the Horseman regarding this web site. It is refreshing to be able to discuss something with such a mature group and be able to disagree on something without all the immature jabs and mud slinging you find on public boards.

In addition...M&W were asked to participate in the interviews of S2 and declined...this could be interpreted many different ways, but before we begin our sojurn of discovery why, it must also be noted that Terry O'Quinn is also suspiciously absent from the S1, S2, and S3 interviews....why might that be??

4th Horseman..

[Guest gmcp]

This type of change happens when executive producers change.

I have very mixed feelings about the Morgan & Wong season. They produced some of the best episodes of the series, and really developed the relationship between Frank and Watts, and really developed Frank Black as a person. Unfortunately, the Millennium group became cultic and estranged, which I think is very unfortunate. I think they could have accomplished many of the things that they did without making the Millennium group a religion (of sorts).

I applaud M&W for a lot of triumphs, and I detest them for a lot of [what I think are] mistakes. Unfortunately, they left Season 2 in such a way that made Season 3 very difficult to get its feet up.

So, CrusaderFrank (welcome, by the way), I agree with some of what you say, but I think you're still being a bit harsh about Season 2. It is a different vision from Season 1, but not necessarily all for the worst. Take another look at Seson 2 and watch it with a neutral mind, and you might enjoy it a lot more.

[tobyx]

There is not much still to say about this. But a fact remains, Morgan and Wong shifted the series from a type of monster of the week approach to something more difficult to cope with as the viewer. On a personal note, I liked it.

You write:

Sorry, that's not what the show and the Group were supposed to be about.

How do you know?

Toby

[Guest CrusaderFrank]

There is not much still to say about this. But a fact remains, Morgan and Wong shifted the series from a type of monster of the week approach to something more difficult to cope with as the viewer. On a personal note, I liked it.

You write:

QUOTESorry, that's not what the show and the Group were supposed to be about.

How do you know?

Toby

I "know" because it felt right to have Frank join a group of like minded people.

What was the point of Legion asking Frank to join them in "Powers, Principalities, etc"? Since MG is already working with Legion you have to wonder if Legion was looking for additional tax write offs. I mean could they claim 2 deduction for Frank Black, one for the MG and the other for the creepy attorney's offer?

IRS Auditor: We need to talk about these deductions

Legion: Which?

IRS: Frank Black. You have him listed here under Millennium Group, and then for the law firm.

Legion: And?

IRS: Well you can't claim him twice, it's illegal.

Legion: First, I'm Evil so you have to expect me to fudge on my taxes. Second, Frank doesn't yet know that I'm working with Millennium Group and that the MG is evil so we think we can fight this in court. Besides if you continue with this audit I may have to take your soul."

IRS: Ha! Good luck with that.

[The Old Man]

LOL!