Further evidence that we're headed for the end

[Guest Jim McLean]

i have witness "victim impact statements" before in which the victim or the family of the dead is able to give statement to the guilty offender. its powerful stuff. There also use to be a show on A&E i believe when the victims of rape-burglary or assault confront the offender. i remember the disscussion that follows is described as relief and closure

I've just re-read your previous post and realise I misread what you were saying based on pre-conceived notions of your earlier points about punishing offenders. My apologies - I should have paid closer attention.

Yes, I very much agree with that line of reasoning - its very much what I'm advocating; a rational use of confrontation is something that is practical and can carry positive outcomes.

What I'm arguing against is victims looking for validation through the pain, discomfort and ultimately killing the guilty aggressor. If deemed appropriate I'm very pro what you are suggesting - its a process that does seem to help move the victim onwards that isn't based around indulging emotional turmoil. I do realise that emotional turmoil is a powerful drive, but I'm not sure its a hunger that should be indulged.

So yes, this is what I'd like to see more of. It doesn't solve the problems, but I think the further we get anyway from justice through harm or punishment, the better a society we will become.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Jim McLean

[Guest squire]

I wish to quote once of the most eloquent quotes regarding the passing of a loved one...

From Richard Adams' "Watership Down"

"my heart has joined the Thousand,...for my friend stopped running today"

Obviously taken from "The Great War"...but have we seen..."The Great War"???

My condolencese to you and yours.

Kind Regards,

Squire

The victims:

The perps:

These animals car-jacked, then raped Christopher Newsom, cut off his penis, then set him on fire and shot him several times (fatally) while they forced his girlfriend, Channon Christian, to watch. An even more cruel fate awaited her!

Channon Christian, was beaten and gang-raped in many ways for four days by all of them, while they took turns urinating on her. Then they cut off her breast and put chemicals in her mouth ... and then murdered her. (The "chemicals in her mouth" were intended to cover up the perps' DNA.)

Dozens of New Charges in Double Murder Case Announced

Posted: 5:05 PM Feb 1, 2007. Last Updated: 11:40 AM Feb 8, 2007.

Reporter: Whitney Daniel, WVLT Staff

Knoxville (WVLT) - The District Attorney General of Knox County announced the list of charges facing now five suspects in the double murder of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom.

The District Attorney General Randy Nichols is not saying whether or not he will seek the death penalty, but he does say the State will seek conviction for all charges filed in a 24-page indictment from the Knox County Grand Jury.

Lemaricus Davidson, 25, faces a total of 46 charges. Davidson was indicted on 16 counts of felony murder growing out of rape, robbery kidnapping and theft of Channon Christian and Chris Newsom, 2 counts premeditated murder of Christian and Newsom, 2 counts especially aggravated robberies from Christian and Newsom, 4 counts especially aggravated kidnapping of Christian and Newsom, 20 counts aggravated rape of Christian and Newsom, and 2 counts of theft from Christian and Newsom.

Letalvis Cobbins, 24, faces a total of 46 charges. Cobbins was indicted on 16 counts of felony murder growing out of rape, robbery kidnapping and theft of Channon Christian and Chris Newsom, 2 counts premeditated murder of Christian and Newsom, 2 counts especially aggravated robberies from Christian and Newsom, 4 counts especially aggravated kidnapping of Christian and Newsom, 20 counts aggravated rape of Christian and Newsom, and 2 counts of theft from Christian and Newsom.

George Thomas, 24, faces a total of 46 charges. Thomas was indicted on 16 counts of Felony Murder growing out of rape, robbery kidnapping and theft of Channon Christian and Chris Newsom, 2 counts premeditated murder of Christian and Newsom, 2 counts especially aggravated robberies from Christian and Newsom, 4 counts especially aggravated kidnapping of Christian and Newsom, 20 counts aggravated rape of Christian and Newsom, and 2 counts of theft from Christian and Newsom.

Just last night, police in Lebanon, Kentucky, arrested 18-year-old Vanessa Coleman. She faces 40 Tennessee state charges. Coleman was indicted on 12 counts felony murder growing out of rape, robbery kidnapping and theft of Channon Christian and Chris Newsom, 1 count premeditated murder of Christian only, 1 count especially aggravated robbery of Newsom only, 4 counts especially aggravated kidnapping of Christian and Newsom, 20 counts of aggravated rape of Christian and Newsom and 2 counts of theft from Christian and Newsom.

Eric Boyd, 24, also arrested in connection with the fatal carjacking, only faces federal charges as an accessory after the fact. He was not indicted by Knox County Grand Jury.

Felony Murder carries a possibility of death, life without the possibility of parole and life with parole. Especially Aggravated Robbery is a Class A felony that carries a possibility of 15 to 60 years in prison. Aggravated Rape is a Class A felony that carries a possibility of 15 to 60 years of prison.

At a news conference Thursday, Nichols commended the cooperative efforts between several departments and credits that cooperation for the fast pace this case is moving through the court system.

Nichols says he hopes to move the case to trial on the first day it's set.

The four are expected to make their first court appearance within ten to fifteen days.

This is certainly a case garnering a lot of public interest, Nichols recognizes that and says he expects all kinds of requests filed in this case, including a change of venue in order to receive a fair trial. But he says he does hope 12 Knox County jurors will be able to determine the guilt or innocence of these suspects.

Personal note: Don't you find it interesting that the national news couldn't get enough of the Duke "rape" case, but this far worse crime hasn't received any notice by the media outside of the locals and a few folks that spread the word via e-mail?

[Guest peas_and_corn]

Wow, this thread has progressed quite a bit since my last visit! Visiting a post a while ago...

Thanks for your service Gun. One of my brothers and my son-in-law are cops. I know how much good you guys do that never gets out to the public. Both have had to deal with life and death situations n real time; not from a philosophical perspective.

Thanks for the stats Peas and Corn. I was off just a bit.. ha. So, 17,00 murders and less than 50 executions. Maybe one of the executed was wrongly killed? MAYBE, but all of the murdered were wrongly killed. Doesn't seem right to me. So if cost $25,000 per death row inmate that's $41,250,000 spent to coddle murderers each year. Doesn't seem right to me.

Finally, what about all those death row inmates that we have no doubt about at all? The ones caught red-handed, or on video, or with like 15 witnesses.. why aren't they at least executed?

The thing is, our culture changed very much over the last 40 years. Right and wrong have become a matter of perspective. The only thing that seems to be "immoral" is to tell anyone that they are immoral. If you don't want to just let everyone do their own thing then YOU are the problem. This attitude permeates our courts as well. "He really isn't a bad person, just misunderstood. We ought to try to understand the influences that forced him into his situation. We ought to help him, not punishh him. Besides we really don't have the time to take him to trial, or the room in jail. Let's let him get back to society where he belongs." How many times do we find out that the people that do these horrible times have a rap sheet that goes back years? Doesn't seem right to me.

The biggest executor is China- it is believed that China is responsible for 50% of worldwide executions- however, the number is believed to be much higher, as they don't make a habit of reporting executions of people who asked why they were being taxed too much. Additionally, the China problem is made greater since executions are carried out for the harvesting or organs- a sticky issue in itself.

The irony of executions is that they ultimately cost more than life in prison. I believe the $25,000 per inmate is per year. Many inmates are executed after 10, 11 years in death row, as they can appeal the verdict, and then the execution order what three times? Everything gets delayed since the courts are clogged and executions take a long time to deliberate on- in fact, I have heard of some cases in which the prosecution refused to ask for the death penalty because it risked getting the case thrown out!

[richard]

I believe these people sorry i mean animals should meet the there death slow and painfully i can't wait to see if jessie jackson or rev sharpton gets involved in it i believe an eye for an eye

[hippyroo]

"why can't we all just get along?" because punks likes these only care about what they want.. society will be better when there are few of them alive

[Gunslinger]

you never will be able to show them what they've done, they'll never understand. Its often the core nature of the sociopath and psychopath. You might make them fear for their own life, but it doesn't bring honest repentance or understanding, merely an animal desire for safety.

I concur in the absolute. First off, are we referring to individuals along the lines of Berkowitz, Dahmer, Gacy, Dennis Rader (BTK), or Bundy? Or are we talking about someone who commits murder in the act of another crime (robbery, etc)? A clear distinction is needed if we are to discuss this with a modicum of responsibility.

I find quite vexing the idea of lumping all criminals together under the Sword of Damoceles, with no hope of salvation or rehabiliation. The attitude of "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" reeks of 1800 western posse justice. I would think we should have progressed since then. Perhaps not...but remember, whether we choose to believe or not, (and who are we to judge), of the infamous mentioned above, i know that at least Dahmer expressed a conversion to Christianity before his death at the hands of another prisoner. You can doubt all you want to, deny its validity. But are you sure??? Why is it impossible to conceive?? As the saying goes "there are no atheists in foxholes", alas, many in prison, under similar circumstances have professed conversions, most notably Tex Watson of the Manson Clan. If so, then who are we to judge whether it is true or bogus? We act as judge, jury, and executioner and yet we dont know the HEART of the individual.

No one get their underwear in a wedgie over this. I am just presenting a POV for discussion. As for myself, its not up to me to say if such stories of conversion carry any merit. I simply need to inspect my own life, before casting judgement on others..

did i make any sense or is it inane dribbling?? I just got home from work and perhaps i should have surrendered to Morphius....

4th Horseman...

Your point is right on sir, I have listened to countless and I do mean countless scumbag POS violent offenders whose every other word was "God has forgiven me for my crimes". They say this as almost a talismanic phrase, rambling the phrase into every other paragraph of their statement. Can you guess where this statement is usually taken?? Anyone? Yep, you guessed it, in the interview room as they are being interrogated for a similarly heinous or even worse crime. They just can't figure out why "God" allowed them to strong arm rob another person, rape another woman, molest another child (insert your most hated violent crime here), it's NEVER their fault. Do you want to know the quickest and most convenient way to snowjob a parole/probation hearing board? Speak as much and as often as you possibly can about how much you have found Jesus in prison, how sorry you are for the crimes you committed and how, given another chance, you would switch places with the victim. Does this line of BS sound familiar to anyone? Do you know what prisoners become in prison? Better liars, better cheats, better swindlers, they network with other prisoners about the best way to get out of jail the quickest. They are all just a little more in shape from the weight lifting when they get out. I have heard every excuse imaginable for all kinds of crime. "I have issues with anger." "I had a bad childhood." "Daddy didn't love me enough." You want to know what I've never heard as I head toward 11 years in law enforcement? "I'm a bad person and I wanted something I couldn't have, so I took it, and didn't give a damn about the consequences of who I hurt/killed to get what I wanted." Wouldn't that be refreshing to here. Everybody has a story about how they got to the point of being handcuffed, and as of March 1st, 2008, I have never encountered one who thought themselves a bad person. There are bad people, there are evil people, there are also people who take responsibility for their actions and try to make it through this difficult life without bringing untold horror and oppression on their fellow mankind. People like all of us here on the board. Here I go 4th, the soap box beckons..lol. I spend 99% of my waking mental state shaking my head wondering how the the hell humans have made it to 2008 without God blowing the whistle at some point and ordering everyone into their own corners for a gatorade and a smoke break. To me, there is a some basic splinter that has gone wrong at some point in our existence. You can call it "original sin" or "free will" if that makes it easier to understand, neither choice seems to completely explain why the hell humans deem it necessary to bring upon one another violence and chaos. Could it be the dissolution of the family over the last 100 years? The speed of our society? Alcohol? Drugs? Nothing, to me, seems a complete answer in itself, I have never been able to fathom the complexity of this question. I don't have the writing/thinking abilities of 4th or Ethsnafu, if I could articulate the way I feel about topics half as well as they could, I probably wouldn't spend as much time as I do thinking about all this craziness. Head is empty for the moment....time for some video games...lol, Gunslinger.

[hippyroo]

gunslinger, using simple easy to understand words is genius! You express yourself very well; it is quite clear what you are saying. Of course it helps that I agree with nearly everything you say. After dealing with enough of "those" people you really can't understand them; you get to the point where you just wish they'd stop or be stopped. It's like, "Where are the adults to stop all this crap?" Yes, these criminals are human. They have human qualities. They might even be charming, but the difference between them and most of us is that they went ahead and did the bad thing. It doesn't make them less human; it does mean that they need to suffer the consequence of their actions. Should mercy be shown where warrented? yes. But an abundance of mercy or laziness or overzealous concern for their rights has overtaken the courts. Justice is more about money and polotics than it is about right vs. wrong.

[Guest Jim McLean]

I'm sorry but I agree with little of Gunslinger's sentiments (that are more concise and eloquent than he probably realises!), nor the equally honest commentary of Hippyroo's. Regardless of problems within the system, as soon as the social order starts objectifying with "them" and "us", we take a step back.

Is the system flawed? Well, first you have to ask whether the system is more complicated? It certainly is. That's because human society is a far more complicated system to make fair than it is to make fundamental. It's all easy to use the "them" and "us" to demand a less sympathetic system, until that new system presents the inherent flaws that moved us to what we have today; when innocents are left to the mercy of black and white justice; when those with bias, revenge and intolerance use such absolutes to carve their own prejudices into the social state.

Because we have to remember that its the “them” and “us” systems that has been the step that brought what we have and the sins of our fathers; the intolerances, injustices and corruption born from more intolerant systems have created much of the difficulties in social culture we have today; the swing that some here have stated in favour of the criminal are born from the unfair treatment of those expected or treated as criminals.

But is this system perfect? I’ve not seen one post here to suggest it is and on that ground, I think we can stand as a united whole. But I think we have to remember that flaws come with any complex social system and the flaws don’t necessarily invalidate the overall ideology.

I certainly don’t want to see the extreme criminals we are currently discussing, those of unwavering, deadly anti-social trends out on the streets, but I don’t think that means we take a step back to a time when we cared less and punished more. That system didn’t work as well as rose tinted specs may occasionally suggest, in fact, its why we are where we are now.

We need to be rational and empathic. We need to understand and accept societies flaws for our own; that wrong in society is as much our fault as some external evil. We need to get off our own social high horse and realise that there are no absolutes, there are no clear cut answers, but that justice is about keeping our people safe, not looking for short cuts to making victims or criminals feel better. Revenge should not be a part of a higher culture. It doesn’t bring closure, it doesn’t help people come to terms with their pain, and it doesn’t bring accurate judgments. It’s when people whip up a storm of emotional frenzy bad calls are made.

We need to pull away from predjudice. We need to understand our society more. That doesn’t mean victims should feel sorry for killers, it means victims need to understand that anger and craving to inflict pain will bring them no satisfaction; its when victims understand that the importance comes from simply helping the system create a safe society, not a righteous one.

We need people to judge less - one of the very wise words of Christ himself. People are people. We should be looking to judge only in the name of protecting our people, no in exacting our opinion of revenge. If we’ve not lived in the other’s shoes, then who are we to say? Keep the people who harm others off the street - thats our social mandate, not to decide whether they are monsters and deserve pain.

Empathy calls to understand these people as much as we can as to know how best to deal with them. It doesn’t mean feeling pity or sympathy, merely comprehending what they are and finding the best solution.

Intolerant measures are all well and good in theory. Those who are bad are locked up. Simple. In reality its more complex. I agree with Gun that many criminals have evolved with the system, though if you look at these repeat offenders you’ll see its not simply their fault. Many repeat offenders, particularly those from drug related crimes, do exist in a world which has come to recognize no escape from their routine that takes them in and out of prison. Society’s mistakes have born a culture which accepts prison and finds ways to deal with it as others deal with their taxes; a problem to be overcome.

The problem is the system is so bloody complicated, finding a perfect simple answer is impossible, but I would heartily recommend that no one falls into the tabloid trap of “them” and “us”. I’ve read many reports of some horrendous deeds which certainly scream full incarceration, but they are still people. And until one of us can prove they are perfect, we’re all just various degrees of imperfection looking for ways to make sure society finds the safest answer.

Again, whether we like it or not, we must avoid embracing only the positive outputs of society and pushing away the negative ones. If we all take credit for the wonders of our age, and pledge our taxes to those successes in our society, we must accept the failures as our own culpability too. We are all born from our time. Some of us have fortunate lives, some less so. Some born into abuse, messed up heads or messed up lives. Some “monsters” can be traced to the root of their “evil”, some we cannot. All however, are bound to us by being “us” - society. As such, I do believe our taxes are duty bound to accept the bi-product of the bad, as much as the good. We can’t pick and choose.

So I guess I’m trying to say not to judge the people in the system for what they do, merely react to it, and if one is in the position, find ways of improving the imperfections, for their are many.

But on a high note, I strongly disagree with the notion that our lack of family values, drugs, alcohol has made things worse. The one thing that makes things worse is population. Breeding in a finite space with finite resources. Beyond that, we - at least in the West - are making progress. Sure, the middle class white male may prefer how things were going in 1952, but for virtually every other groups, improvements have been forthcoming, and continue to grow.

And as we become enlightened to the further complexities of society, where we accept the equal rights of all law abiding citizens, be they black, white, gay, female, disabled or of a different creed, we will unearth more complexities that will bear on ourselves and our social system.

I don’t think there is any answer to this problem aside from this singular piece of advice; don’t simply a complicated problem. As soon as we try and pigeon hole groups of people, we’ll end up making mistakes. It's easy to do - and very human too, for as I've said previously, human nature prefers simple answers - kill or be killed. But if we want a fair social system, we have to go beyond that. Because otherwise we push for one justice for one, and not for another; we'll happily look at a certain harsh rule for the distant problem-people but expect a more lenient one closer to home. Its amazing how many people will cry that all "yobs" or "punks" should be sent into the army, until its their son - who isn't a "yob" or "punk" but just a little fiery/misguided/confused.

At least we can agree that there are horrors in this world and those horrors are ones that have to be treated warily. By serving our victims and criminals with equal amounts of rationale AND empathy, we will be most likely to find social answers that best serve keep the innocents safe. The less emotion we put into the justice system, the less controlled it is by feelings of distrust, hate and pain, the more likely we're going to find the social justice which produces a safer society.

[/soapbox] :)

[4th Horseman]

At least we can agree that there are horrors in this world and those horrors are ones that have to be treated warily. By serving our victims and criminals with equal amounts of rationale AND empathy, we will be most likely to find social answers that best serve keep the innocents safe. The less emotion we put into the justice system, the less controlled it is by feelings of distrust, hate and pain, the more likely we're going to find the social justice which produces a safer society.

Laredo..another eloquent post...as you have with Gunsliger's post, i have some disagreement with yours as well...

Are you saying that I personally, as well as Gunslinger, Hippyroo, and the rest of us here share a responsibility for those who CHOOSE to take a criminal path? Please explain just how i am responsible when i CHOOSE to live within the boundries of society and its laws. Is it my responsibility that those who have chosen an opposite direction never got the "breaks" i did? that i created for myself by working hard and not "expecting" the world to take care of me, or that it owed my something?

What this all boils down to is taking responsibility for our own actions. Excusing people who violate the sanctity of our society and its laws by saying "they are a product of our own creation" is really blurring the line between order and chaos...just a thought

4th Horseman

[Guest Jim McLean]

Laredo..another eloquent post...as you have with Gunsliger's post, i have some disagreement with yours as well...

No probs mate - I don't expect people to adhere or believe what I preach. I'm just touched that anyone attempts to read it! :

Are you saying that I personally, as well as Gunslinger, Hippyroo, and the rest of us here share a responsibility for those who CHOOSE to take a criminal path? Please explain just how i am responsible when i CHOOSE to live within the boundries of society and its laws. Is it my responsibility that those who have chosen an opposite direction never got the "breaks" i did? that i created for myself by working hard and not "expecting" the world to take care of me, or that it owed my something?

What this all boils down to is taking responsibility for our own actions. Excusing people who violate the sanctity of our society and its laws by saying "they are a product of our own creation" is really blurring the line between order and chaos...just a thought

I'm talking more philosophically rather than practically. What I'm saying is that all of us are products of the society we invest in, yet we have a tendency to ideologically see criminals as attackers - outsiders - to our civil world while we'll see those who benefit it as an example of the magnificence of our society.

What I'm saying is we can't embrace the bad as being contrary to our society when in fact its as much inherent in how our society exists as all the things we credit our culture for.

I'm not saying we should pat the criminal on the head, or given them a nice hot cup of tea. What I'm saying is we need to accept the burden of society's erroneous creations as much as we accept the successes of the gifted, as both are products - as are we all - of this culture. We are born into this society, we are crafted by its social and civil rules, we are even genetically bi-products of others who conform to our culture. We all - good, bad and middle imbue the ethos of our civil environment, albeit different attributes. If we study the criminals, we can often see where society has created the environment - be it intentionally or indirectly - to breed such malcontent. We can see how our social expectations help manifest so many of the issues that are born in the socially malicious.

As such, we should naturally expect to have to deal with the bad as we reward the good, for both are natural aspects of our social order. The bad aren't external threats to our social order, they are PART of our social order. They are the yang to the ying; they are the side of life we don't like to admit is a part of our very way of life.

As such, I believe we should as a culture not be looking for ways to pain the bad, or look at ways of separating out the bad as aberrations of all we hold dear. They are an unfortunate bi-product of our race and social existence. We can't distance ourselves from the problem, nor should we attack it as if its a parasite. These horrible creatures are a part of the body, albeit a part we don't like. We have to look at ways at containing their venom and reconciling this as part of social necessity.

On the whole, we do actually do that. We pay for prisons, ergo we accept social responsibility for those failing our social mandate, but we need to push the ideology further by accepting these "evil monsters" are natural manifestations of our world and not some parasite trying to destroy our otherwise near perfect society.

It's about taking the wall away between those we naturally despise and confronting the problem objectively, seeing the nastiness in our society and finding the best way to deal with those who endanger the liberties we look to uphold. Rather than judge these people and look for verdicts to return agony on these natural off shoots of an artificial social structure, we simply need to find the best way to protect our people from them without the need to punish them for simply being manifestations of the bad in our culture.

Again, I'm not saying that we need to practically look to find ways to sympathize with dangerous men and look to return them to society, more its time to stop monsterfying an issue, the natural urge we have to all we fear - separate the "monsters' out as something unnatural to our society. They are a natural consequence of our world, and as such we should treat them as OUR problem, not as a problem unto themselves. If that means tax dollars go to make sure they are kept humanely and incarcerated, fine - we should accept the fiscal price as they are simply the ugly part of our society that has to exist in the specific diktats of the community ethos we currently have. Until we find away to prevent abuse, errors in social law, wipe clean the sins of our fathers, of discrimination, poverty and all the other natural elements found in a society, we can expect these people to exist as much a bi-product as the good elements that come from our fairness, equality, hard work, social bonds, education and friendship.

As I said, its more a philosophical point that a practical one. And a damn hard one to explain! :D