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...and I beg the forgiveness of the powers that be if this has asked before, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. If it has been, just point me to the thread in question and I'll read on.

I actually paid attention to the beginning of Dead Letters- where Jordan has the nightmare involving Pennywise (I know its not him, but geeze, he's scary enough to be his twin). What is that dream supposed to represent- especially Frank walking down the never ending circular red staircase?

Oh, did anyone catch the reflection of Jim (well, his watch I think) in glass during the conversation he has with Frank regarding whether or not the Group should put him on the case? Originally I thought it was the person sitting all the way in the back, or smoke from Frank's coffee, but it reflects whenever he moves... Or maybe I'm getting old in my young age and seeing things...

Edited by Who Am I?

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image,Peter-spc-Watts,white,black.png

I am growing

And I am growing anxious

And I am growing weary

And I am growing closer

And I am growing up

And I am growing impatient

And I am growing leery

And I am growing wise

And I am growing less

And less

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I'm hoping Libby sees this post, she would know about the dream, and I have no doubts that Mark or Graham would have a good answer for you. I will need to see the episode again and pay special attention. I honestly don't remember any post discussing the dream and look forward to reading some of the comments from others. Have you read the transcript? If not, here's the link, maybe there's something in it that will help with your questions.

Dead Letters Transcript

I have no clue about the reflection and so want the answer myself. My curiousity it sky high now. :wink:

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"Time is too slow for those who wait; too swift for those who fear;

too long for  those who grieve; too short for those who rejoice.

But for those who love, time is eternity."

(Jane Fellowes)

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Regarding the reflection, you have to be more precise (what shot, of whom, close up or wide shot...). Otherwise, I didn't see anything in either the scene Frank Black is in the coffee shop talking to a Millennium Group member about if Frank should be on the case.

Or the scene where Frank Black meets Jim (James) Horn for the first time (the scene after the coffee shop scene). But reflections...there seems to be a light shining off the Millennium Group man's watch at a couple of instances when he moves his hand and shots of Frank, in the background there's a reflection through what seems to be a a jug of water (but it's too much out of focus to really see anything).

I didn't find anything of merit in my dream interpretation books about either clowns or stairs.

I've never been fond of this dream sequence, although there has been another dream sequence, another James Wong episode (as recent information, Wong focused on the Millennium episodes for season 1 while Glen Morgan focused on the X-Files episode whatever season that was). But since that was Frank Black's dream and highly relevant to his moral dilemma he was having in that episode, The Thin White Line.

I'm not depressed, just quiet.

Jósef's Visual Musings:

http://cheersfromiceland.blogspot.com/

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I'll have to go get specific time frames where I see the so-called reflections and put them on here. Like I said, I could be in a heat-induced haze and seeing things...

whoami.gif

image,Peter-spc-Watts,white,black.png

I am growing

And I am growing anxious

And I am growing weary

And I am growing closer

And I am growing up

And I am growing impatient

And I am growing leery

And I am growing wise

And I am growing less

And less

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Dreams are usually the inner man speaking to the outer man. Depending upon whether you are going up or down the stairs tells you whether you are progressing upward or going back down within yourself and in your life.

Here's a section on clowns from a dream dictionary.

CLOWN : The obvious meaning of clowns is that you feel foolish or that you may have been seen as an object of ridicule who cannot be taken seriously. But clowns also can be linked more frequently to false emotions. They may symbolize someone who is not dealing with some trauma very well - putting on a brave face and not really dealing with emotional upset. Clowns are also symbols of false and deceptive people who claim to be sympathetic.

Hope this helps. :ouroborous:

DarleneSignaturePic1.jpg

"Time is too slow for those who wait; too swift for those who fear;

too long for  those who grieve; too short for those who rejoice.

But for those who love, time is eternity."

(Jane Fellowes)

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If that the spot where Jim says "There are those in the group who are convinced you shouldn't take the case in Portland," I could barely see the third person in the background, but nothing on the coffee cup. Jim Penseyres would have fit in well in season two and three with his Cloak-and-Dagger Group personna in the diner!

The end of the teaser, there are super-brief flashes of Franks internal POV. Any idea what they are? I originally thought it was a demon, but after multiple pauses, I saw no horned creature!

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  • 9 months later...
Guest SamCA

So I'm watching Millennium for the first time. And it blew my mind, looking this episode up on Google, that something I thought was obvious when I watched it doesn't seem to be the common interpretation. The Onion AV Club retrospective doesn't mention it, and neither do any of the episode guides I've found. Then again, being new to the show, maybe people hashed this all out years ago?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Jim Horn is a copycat killer, and that Frank never picks up on it, and Horn gets away with it scott free.

* The first murder Frank investigates, at the dog pound, has no message left on the body, even though all the others do. He assumes he'll find one, but it never turns up. And then the next victim turns up, with the second part of a message - as if the killer skipped over the one at the dog pound. There's even a whole conversation at the beginning about how the other Millennium Group profilers don't think this was the same killer.

* The killer has a scrapbook of all of his victims. The camera very clearly shows him page through it - it has all the victims except the dog catcher.

* Horn's initial profile is of himself, not the killer. He also tells Frank gray hairs were found at the crime scene. The killer doesn't have gray hairs, but Buddy Cop does.

Honestly, I was all "man this is so obvious" until the end of the episode came and the dude totally got away with it.

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  • Elders (Admins)

That's an intriguing idea. But so many Millennium episodes have layers in them that can require several viewings, and viewpoints, to dissect them.

I'll have to watch the episode again but, from memory, I think you are right that some of the profiling James was doing was of himself. Glen Morgan said in an interview that some of James Horn's story was taken from his own personal life at the time - he was going through a fairly acrimonious divorce at the time. James Horn's wife is called Cindy - the name of Glen Morgan's first wife.

But, going back to the character of James Horn, from a quick perusal of the transcript (the early part of the episode) there's a couple of things that now stand out because of the idea you've raised.

Frank: He's killed before, when he was young - most likely a female prostitute. After an early setback - a girlfriend, a job - he sought out a woman that wouldn't turn him away. The solicitation increased his feelings of nothingness and so he killed her before sex. My guess? He was never caught. He got away with it. The subject has felt guilt ever since, angered at a world that should have punished him but didn't.

And a little later:

James: ...these murderers - before, they were a fascinating, psychological, societal puzzle. Most, I could even feel sympathy for them because of their horrible lives. But now - when I walk into a crime scene, all I see is my little boy's face superimposed on the victim. And, and these killers can't be simply cases or psychological anomalies anymore. They're just monsters. Just monsters.

I don't recall that I got the impression that James Horn was a copycat killer, but maybe the juxtaposition of those two lines could mean that possibly James was only now reacting emotionally to the horror of murder because he now had someone in his life who he loved and was loved by unconditionally, but faced losing because of the divorce. Also, it's a possibly telling that James could have progressed at all in law enforcement while previously only seeing murders as a fascinating puzzle. Frank can do the inexpressive face because he's seen so much and understands so much; James, on the other hand, seems only now to be saying that he recognises murderers as monsters.

James's violence at the end of the episode (from memory) could be a reaction to the stressor in his life (his impending divorce), but maybe the stressor has finally revealed to himself that he might also be a monster.

As I said, I'll have to watch the episode again. I might well then disagree with you :oneeyedwinK, but you've raised a very interesting interpretation. As I've said elsewhere, more than once, one of the things we love about new members here is when we get different interpretations or questions that end up making us think or re-watching episodes.

A very interesting and intriguing first post - I hope you stick around and post some more. :smile:

Libby

"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape." Terry Pratchett

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Guest SamCA

That's an intriguing idea. But so many Millennium episodes have layers in them that can require several viewings, and viewpoints, to dissect them.

Glad to hear it! I do have to admit that it's comments like this that have me watching - the first couple of episodes honestly didn't grab me, but the idea of this 'hidden killer' in Dead Letters really caught my attention, so I like the idea that these episodes can be approached as a puzzle. (I'm also a big fan of The Prisoner...)

James's violence at the end of the episode (from memory) could be a reaction to the stressor in his life (his impending divorce), but maybe the stressor has finally revealed to himself that he might also be a monster.

All of the above, I think. There's also the element Frank talks about as the difference between them. Frank can put himself in the head of the killer - Jim has put the killer inside his own head.

As I said, I'll have to watch the episode again. I might well then disagree with you :oneeyedwinK, but you've raised a very interesting interpretation.

I'll be very interested to hear your thoughts if you do rewatch it. The fact that nobody else seems to have seen this makes me wonder if I'm just reading in stuff that isn't there.

But several elements make me think that even if Jim isn't the killer, we're supposed to think the dog catcher wasn't killed by the same killer as all the others - between the scrapbook scene and the lack of message at that killing, it seems marked out pretty clearly. If it's not Jim, then the question becomes who it was...

Edited by SamCA
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Welcome SamCA!

I used to dislike this episode, primarily because to me the James Horn character seemed so annoying. This was until I realized that James was another obstacle for Frank to help or overcome, not too dissimilar from episodes like Monster, Good-bye Charlie, and Beware of the Dog, where Franks ends up finding the real insights and solutions beyind the initial assumed presentation of the problem.

I consider the James Horn character to be who Frank Black could have become if he did not have strong focus and grounding in the work he does.

:rock2:

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