hippyroo Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Removing the feeding tube from a helpless woman so she will starve to death is the latest achievement of my culture. How could anyone think that starving someone to death is a good idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Seraphim Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Our culture also seems to think drilling in wildlerness and hurting the creatures living there for a small amount of oil is okay. Abortion is bad, but killing babies in other countries is good. The US has become a sicker country in recent years. Where double standards rule. Where pseudo-morality justifies some evils and condemns others. The major problems are ignored or encouraged while so many trivial issues are overdone.. I see no problem on pulling the plug on a comatose or suffering person in some cases, but rather than have them die slowly, it would be better to "put them to sleep". Starvation would simply cause more pain, that would not be merciful at all. Pain to many, is worse than death. It may be our own selfish desire that we force those in pain to live at times. It is not our pain, so maybe our opinions are meaningless. Ultimately, struggles like this become about moot principles and the honest well being and condition of the one most affected will be ignored as per usual. "Why do the religious so cling to life, despite the fact that God will take them? Why do aethiests so cling to life when there belief lies in chaos and man but animal of impulses and instinct?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blondton13 Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Removing the feeding tube from a helpless woman so she will starve to death is the latest achievement of my culture. How could anyone think that starving someone to death is a good idea? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You are absolutely right!! I was under the impression (wrongly) that Terry Schiavo was in a "vegetative state" as reported by various newscasts. Looking more closely, I realized that Terry is awake, conscious, and breathing on her own - according to a report, Terry's parents have asked the husband to divorce her and leave her in their care, but for some reason , he wouldn't. (Money??) This is disgusting!! LAtest news as of 11:30 Fri night is that they have removed the tube. What is more shocking is that they've already done this to her twice!! Simply sickening and sad. And as an american, I would never consider starving someone to death as "humane". More compassion is shown to stray dogs and cats-at least they are put to sleep quickly with an injection. For full info, see this article: https://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apu...Damaged%20Woman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elders (Moderators) Libby Posted March 19, 2005 Elders (Moderators) Share Posted March 19, 2005 It's worth pointing out that this case is an example of a universal issue rather than a specifically American one. Cultures will differ in how they deal with cases like this, but the concerns raised here are pretty much the same as are raised in every country that TIWWA members come from. In the case of severe brain damage, where the higher-level functions have been lost, what remains is no more than brain stem activity. Someone in a vegetative state is able to breathe and respond to some stimuli, but has lost the higher-level capabilities of thought, emotion, imagination, etc. This is a different scenario from someone in a coma who is non-responsive. How much damage has been caused to the cerebral cortex can be shown by various tests: EEG will show any electrical activity, and cerebral angiography will show blood perfusion of the cortex. News reports rarely give all the technical data, but I assume that these tests have been done in this case - court-appointed doctors have reported that there is no hope of a return of cognitive ability. In cases of PVS, breathing is possible, but the more complex muscle co-ordination for swallowing, focussing the eyes, etc. is lost. In the UK, it is now regarded that in PVS cases, artificial feeding is medical treatment, and can be legally withdrawn, along with other medical treatments. It's worth bearing in mind that people can be in a vegetative state and recover some of their higher-level functions (the brain, after all, is an amazing thing), it's only when the state is persistent (permanent) that these issues come into play. People with PVS don't lose the status of being a human, but are permanently incapable of functioning as an autonomous human being. And because they are still humans, they can't be treated in the same way as animals – euthanasia isn't possible in cultures that don't permit euthanasia. All that can be done is these cases is to not actively try to keep the patient alive. In a similar, and well-known, case in the UK, nutrition was withdrawn and it was determined that the cause of death was the event that caused the PVS, not the withdrawal of the feeding tube. So, we're stuck with these emotionally upsetting scenarios. All we can do is be as caring as we can and that means including the personal aspects. If someone close to a PVS patient feels that the "person" has gone, even though the body remains in a basic functional sense, then the death of the body is the last phase of what has already happened. If someone close wants to keep whatever is left of their loved one, then death will take that away from them. In this case, the husband sees himself as a widower, and that's basically true as whatever made his wife what she was has gone. Her parents see a warm, breathing, body with (minimal) reactions, not a corpse. We're never going to find easy solutions to these kinds of issues. But maybe the fact that this troubles us so much is one of the things that makes us human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walkabout Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Does quantity equal quality.. no way!! I do not wish to spend years in a bed [ getting bed sores] and have someone wipe all my oraphaces for me. Not recognizing anyone , or doing anything for myself. no reading, no Millennium , NO EBAY! [ sarcasm I know but making a point] Because of this I am sitting down and now making a living will !! NO ONE is going to keep me alive like that. I live free because anything else is not living. Hokahay! sorry if I have offended anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravity well Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Our culture also seems to think drilling in wildlerness and hurting the creatures living there for a small amount of oil is okay. Abortion is bad, but killing babies in other countries is good. The US has become a sicker country in recent years. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And don't forget how many of the anti-abortionists in power essentially fetishize the fetus, then once born, through ridiculous policies, tell it to take a flying leap. activity, and cerebral angiography will show blood perfusion of the cortex. News reports rarely give all the technical data, but I assume that these tests have been done in this case - court-appointed doctors have reported that there is no hope of a return of cognitive ability. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Exactly. This is rarely reported because it's a great photo op for sign-bearers and other members of the religious right to condemn anything humane. These are the same folks against doctor-assisted suicide for those in terrible pain. Seraphim touched on it, about pain and our selfishness. I was raised Roman Catholic and it's there. Suffering is some spiritual badge of honor. More 'humanity' from the GOP: https://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...amaged_woman_21 Fifteen years. She's not coming back to a world of higher brain functions. Be humane. Let her die. Now just have to wait for the chorus of 'life uber alles in the name of Jesus' or some other crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerbelch Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 BEER---> When will we be able to request a 9mm instead of a DNR? BELCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blondton13 Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 There is a distinct difference between being humane and starving to death. I would not want to live this way, either...but I do not believe as some doctors have stated, that the individual having a feeding tube removed does not feel the "pain" of starving and dehydrating. Pain is a very primitive response tied in to the survival instinct, and I find it difficult to swallow that the person does not suffer during this scenario-no pun intended. It takes over 10 days for the person to actually sart dying after artificial nutrition is removed. This is not "humane." Remember "Goodbye, Charlie?" Do we truly know what this person is going through as they lay there for 10+ days while their body breaks down? I beleive in science, but as I stated in a prior thread, science does not have all the answers. I don't care if there's no electrical activity in the higher functioning area of the brain-we're not in their head. Until we allow physicians to inject an overdose of morphine or barbituates to halt breathing and blood flow, I will consider pulling a feeding tube to be inhumane. And that's all I got ta say about that. Sorry, I will get down from my soapbox now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravity well Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 There is a distinct difference between being humane and starving to death. I would not want to live this way, either...but I do not believe as some doctors have stated, that the individual having a feeding tube removed does not feel the "pain" of starving and dehydrating. Pain is a very primitive response tied in to the survival instinct, and I find it difficult to swallow that the person does not suffer during this scenario-no pun intended. It takes over 10 days for the person to actually sart dying after artificial nutrition is removed. This is not "humane." Sorry, I will get down from my soapbox now! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not a medical doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but from the literature that I've read (Libby mentioned some excellent points) that without these higher brain functions, the cause of death would be the initial disease, injury, whatever it be. I don't see how having no functions whatsoever besides the most primal, ingrained activities would cause a person to suffer. Yes, that's a primitive survival resource, the feeling of pain, but you have to be aware to realize what's happening. You could, via a drug, numb your hand and stick it in fire. And you won't feel the pain. Given a choice of pulling the tube and letting her fade or a lethal injection now, I'd choose the latter. But that choice isn't legally available, apparently. So, let her die and not be used as an object to promote a politico-religious agenda, which is what's happening. Off MY soapbox! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blondton13 Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Given a choice of pulling the tube and letting her fade or a lethal injection now, I'd choose the latter. But that choice isn't legally available, apparently. So, let her die and not be used as an object to promote a politico-religious agenda, which is what's happening. Off MY soapbox! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree with you, but I still think it's mean, so there! (What this whole "agenda" basically amounts to..) (At least we can all do this politely, I think!!! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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