This Is Who We Americans Are

[hippyroo]

It seems that you believe in the mandated birth of all pregnancies, I believe a woman can decide what to do to her body if a pregnancy is unwanted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For arguement sake I will assume that you believe murdering humans is wrong? The diffence between us then would be that I see that the "fetus" is human.

[gravity well]

But I must congratulate everyone on being strong-minded without making it personal.

(I myself hate human beings, but you see how nice I am to everybody!!!!)       LOL!!!

...that's a funny, by the way!

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Not personal? Sure it is. I hate all of you.

For arguement sake I will assume that you believe murdering humans is wrong?  The diffence between us then would be that I see that the "fetus" is human.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I personally think it's more complicated than just pro-/anti-murder. I'm not a female. I don't know what it's like to have something inside me, whether a child

six months along, or a clump of cells that amounts to less than the ones I just scraped off the back of my hand. What I want is for them to have that choice at their disposal. At the risk of resurrecting a slogan of the past, my opinion is that

abortions should be safe, legal and rare. I don't think that's in conflict with other

viewpoints such as being anti-death penalty, anti-torture or anti-murder.

[Raven Wolf]

It's worth pointing out that this case is an example of a universal issue rather than a specifically American one. Cultures will differ in how they deal with cases like this, but the concerns raised here are pretty much the same as are raised in every country that TIWWA members come from.

In the case of severe brain damage, where the higher-level functions have been lost, what remains is no more than brain stem activity. Someone in a vegetative state is able to breathe and respond to some stimuli, but has lost the higher-level capabilities of thought, emotion, imagination, etc. This is a different scenario from someone in a coma who is non-responsive. How much damage has been caused to the cerebral cortex can be shown by various tests: EEG will show any electrical activity, and cerebral angiography will show blood perfusion of the cortex. News reports rarely give all the technical data, but I assume that these tests have been done in this case -  court-appointed doctors have reported that there is no hope of a return of cognitive ability.

In cases of PVS, breathing is possible, but the more complex muscle co-ordination for swallowing, focussing the eyes, etc. is lost. In the UK, it is now regarded that in PVS cases, artificial feeding is medical treatment, and can be legally withdrawn, along with other medical treatments. It's worth bearing in mind that people can be in a vegetative state and recover some of their higher-level functions (the brain, after all, is an amazing thing), it's only when the state is persistent (permanent) that these issues come into play.

People with PVS don't lose the status of being a human, but are permanently incapable of functioning as an autonomous human being. And because they are still humans, they can't be treated in the same way as animals – euthanasia isn't possible in cultures that don't permit euthanasia. All that can be done is these cases is to not actively try to keep the patient alive. In a similar, and well-known, case in the UK, nutrition was withdrawn and it was determined that the cause of death was the event that caused the PVS, not the withdrawal of the feeding tube.

So, we're stuck with these emotionally upsetting scenarios. All we can do is be as caring as we can and that means including the personal aspects. If someone close to a PVS patient feels that the "person" has gone, even though the body remains in a basic functional sense, then the death of the body is the last phase of what has already happened. If someone close wants to keep whatever is left of their loved one, then death will take that away from them. In this case, the husband sees himself as a widower, and that's basically true as whatever made his wife what she was has gone. Her parents see a warm, breathing, body with (minimal) reactions, not a corpse.

We're never going to find easy solutions to these kinds of issues. But maybe the fact that this troubles us so much is one of the things that makes us human.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you, Libby. Well said.

They always say you shoudn't judge a man without having walked in their shoes. Well, I can speak from personal experience of having been in a coma for the better part of a month. There was never any talk of "pulling the plug" because I had not Flatlined. There was still brain function. This woman has no brain function, and will NEVER recover... No matter what kind of theoropy or Snake-Dancing Voodoo medicine man they bring in. She will feal nothing, because she is already dead. Thankfuly, her spirit has already gone to the other side. I hate to sound so crude, but the movement everybody is seeing, thinking it's a sign of life, is simply the same thing that happens if you cut the tail off a lizard and it keeps moving. It's moter-functions that are still fireing out of habbit. Believe me.... I'VE BEEN THERE! I was DOA when they found me. I crossed over and came back. She is crossed over....PERMANANTLY! Let her rest in peace, for God's sake!

Does quantity equal quality.. no way!!  I do not wish to spend years in a bed [ getting bed sores] and have someone wipe all my oraphaces for me. Not recognizing anyone ,  or doing anything for myself.  no reading, no Millennium , NO EBAY! [ sarcasm I know but making a point]

  Because of this I am sitting down and now making a living will !!  NO ONE  is going to keep me alive like that. I live free because anything else is not living. Hokahay!  

sorry if I have offended anyone 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AMEN! And thank you!

I think this discussion is drifting away from the original topic.

All the situations mentioned so far are examples of the difficult issues that any society has to face. And there never are easy resolutions. Unless we are very careful in how we discuss such issues, we can end up in an argument that doesn't solve anything, but can lead to people feeling angry and hurt. And there's already too much of that in the world.

We all have our views about many things, but with issues like this, it's probably better to just accept that different people have different opinions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, Libby. Thank you for being a voice of reason. As I've said in many other threads, there is never going to be any resolving of these issues on this board, so why not just live and let live.

Fifteen years. She's not coming back to a world of higher brain functions.

Be humane. Let her die. Now just have to wait for the chorus of 'life uber alles

in the name of Jesus' or some other crap.

Again... 'nuff said.

[Guest blondton13]

I just want to make sure everyone is aware that there are widely differing opinions from experts as to what Terri's current condition is. A doctor had testified that Terri is NOT PVS, and I know that condition was a determinant in some people's thoughts. Please check out this website for some of these remarks. they have a nice timeline that spells out the things that have been happening regarding her care since ~1990.

https://www.terrisfight.org/myths.html

Gravity Well: thanks for male support on the whole "A" word issue. I am 100% for choice, ....mine and anybody else's. But I know that not everyone thinks this way...but that's OK. Agree to diasgree, but be open enough to hear the other side, that's my motto!

[hippyroo]

Were I to agree with the number of posts that say that she is a vegtable so big deal let her die. Why must she starve to death. If you are going to "put her down" at least do it humanly?

[Guest blondton13]

Were I to agree with the number of posts that say that she is a vegtable so big deal let her die.  Why must she starve to death.  If you are going to "put her down" at least do it humanly?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with this as well. My big concern is not the politics, not the money,.....not any of that. I just don't think it's an appropriate way to "let someone pass". This is where Krevorkian's job need to be legal. If I'm like this, by all means..let me go! But do it quickly!!!

I think most of here feel she should be let go. But I'm perceiving that many of us are unsure of Terri's current state, as different people and experts are saying different things. My only concern is the fact that I feel withdrawing nutrition is not a pleasant way to "let someone go."

This horse will be beat soon, don't stress! And that is not meant as sarcasm; I'm referring to our discussion!

[The Old Man]

Okay guys, I think this topic has served its purpose and its time to wind it up. Its a very controversial and difficult subject, one that can stir up strong emotions in many people from different walks of life and experiences. Having reviewed it after a few Members have raised concerns about it, I don't believe this topic should have been started in the first place. It is dipping into the resolve of politics, which have been deemed off-topic on this Message Board for some time now. This topic slipped us by although its been carefully monitored and allowed to run its course.

Thanks to those who have participated but as Erin pointed out, this issue won't be resolved here and so I'm winding this one up. I understand the point raised about it being okay to discuss the issue with respect to others and their opinions, but unfortunately not at this Board, there are many political and pro-life platforms across the Internet of which TIWWA is not one.

On a side note, I would again like to remind and request that Members consider not everyone may share the same viewpoint and opinions as each other, political and religious standings should not intrude in postings across this Board.

Thank you for your understanding.